State of the Steelers

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

My issue with Colbert was it was just time.  The same thing many people have with Tomlin.  Yet it only applies one way.

It 100% does not apply one way. That's the main reason pretty much everyone was happy when Colbert moved on. It was time and had been for a few years. 

Colbert was a solid GM, but never adapted to the modern ways of building a team and handling assets. Khan already show to share a lot of the same values as his predecessor, but with the modern day NBA styled flair for asset manipulation. 

Colbert overstayed his welcome due to his desire to keep things the same. Tomlin is going to need to show some real results or he is right in that timeframe of "we should have moved on 2-4 years ago". 

[jebrick]

7 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

 

Colbert was a solid GM, but never adapted to the modern ways of building a team and handling assets. Khan already show to share a lot of the same values as his predecessor, but with the modern day NBA styled flair for asset manipulation. 

Khan is of the Cobert tree.  I think Weidl's hand in this is far greater as he is from outside the organization.   He is the new perspective about the scouts and the way to run a draft room.  The jury is still out on the new FO as we have only had one draft and 2 seasons but I am scared to lose Weidl as I do not trust Khan to fall back into the Colbert ways.

[Dcash4]

13 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Khan is of the Cobert tree.  I think Weidl's hand in this is far greater as he is from outside the organization.   He is the new perspective about the scouts and the way to run a draft room.  The jury is still out on the new FO as we have only had one draft and 2 seasons but I am scared to lose Weidl as I do not trust Khan to fall back into the Colbert ways.

You could be right, but just because he came up under Colbert doesn't mean he doesn't have his own way of doing certain things. 

Even if the influence is from Weidl, I find it hard to think without him we would be back in the - don't trade picks unless you have extra or don't trade down unless there are as many players you would select with that pick as their are draft spots for the change era. 

[jebrick]

40 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

You could be right, but just because he came up under Colbert doesn't mean he doesn't have his own way of doing certain things. 

Even if the influence is from Weidl, I find it hard to think without him we would be back in the - don't trade picks unless you have extra or don't trade down unless there are as many players you would select with that pick as their are draft spots for the change era. 

While Khan might be more open to trading picks than Colbert, I would be stunned that he would not be bitching about the scouting organization for years under Colbert and nothing happened.  That is why I think the scouting change came from Weidl.  And the scouting change is a big deal.  It took years to screw it up and will take years to fix it.  Years and money.

[warfelg]

12 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I would be stunned that he would not be bitching about the scouting organization for years under Colbert and nothing happened.

Who knows right? 

I was always confused by the fact that he was supposedly highly coveted, interviewed every year for GM roles, but ultimately pulled himself out or just lost out.  Couldn’t be that he was a bad interview or something like that right? Maybe he just liked working for Colbert that much. 

My suspicion without anything to back it up - The Rooney’s sit over the franchise in a “we sign off on everything” way but the reality is they let the GM/POFO/HC have a ton of influence.  A lot of freedom.  More so than he would get anywhere else.  Chances are, because of Weidl’s connection to the Steelers and likely Khan, Khan knew his (Weidl’s) desires of how a franchise should look (scouting wise) and wanted the freedom to run the FO in that way.  And everywhere he interviewed he wouldn’t have that full freedom.  So he knew here he was biding his time. 

My opinion would be that Weidl has had some influence on the structure of analytics, vs gut, vs tape of the process; who’s who of the team; and priorities.  But the structure of the FO, how it’s run, and how these things come up is likely all Khan. So ultimately I would say we’re seeing Khan’s vision of a FO with the influence of the people Weidl has brought in.  By all accounts, this FO has operated in a polar 180, and if that was all because of Weidl, why wouldn’t he just have been the GM in the first place other than never negotiated a contract? I’m sure there would have been someone in Philly that’s got that area of expertise that can do that for him.

[jebrick]

I would change Rooney's to AR2.  Once Dan left, stuff started to fall apart.  I hope the new Rooney gets trained up soon.  Dan Rooney Jr. can not get ready soon enough IMHO.

Quote

My opinion would be that Weidl has had some influence on the structure of analytics, vs gut, vs tape of the process; who’s who of the team; and priorities.  But the structure of the FO, how it’s run, and how these things come up is likely all Khan. So ultimately I would say we’re seeing Khan’s vision of a FO with the influence of the people Weidl has brought in.  By all accounts, this FO has operated in a polar 180, and if that was all because of Weidl, why wouldn’t he just have been the GM in the first place other than never negotiated a contract? I’m sure there would have been someone in Philly that’s got that area of expertise that can do that for him.

I think Weidl came in and had new ideas and Khan agreed with them.  Again, stunned that Colbert would not allow any changes if Khan was bringing them up.

Edited April 10 by jebrick

[warfelg]

7 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I think Weidl came in and had new ideas and Khan agreed with them.  Again, stunned that Colbert would not allow any changes if Khan was bringing them up.

This cycles me back to, Weidl interviewed for the GM job.  If you were going to let him come in with that many new ideas and that much influence why not just hire him for the role in the first place?

[jebrick]

6 minutes ago, warfelg said:

This cycles me back to, Weidl interviewed for the GM job.  If you were going to let him come in with that many new ideas and that much influence why not just hire him for the role in the first place?

Because the Steeler organization still likes to hire from within.  Khan or Hunt was going to be the next GM but Weidl was too good of an interview so they locked him up as asst GM.

 

And new ideas are not always right which is why the Steelers can be too comfortable with the status quo

Edited April 10 by jebrick

[skywlker32]

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

This cycles me back to, Weidl interviewed for the GM job.  If you were going to let him come in with that many new ideas and that much influence why not just hire him for the role in the first place?

My guess would be that Weidl is maybe not as experienced in the realm of cap management and contract building.

From an outside view, it would seem that Khan sets the budgets on what to spend where. I think Khan and Weidl work together on trades and Weidl is moreso the director of who to go and get.

[warfelg]

19 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Because the Steeler organization still likes to hire from within.

So some degree sure, but then you can see Colbert, Cowher, Tomlin were all outside hires.  So it's not like they are completely shut off to it.  

17 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

My guess would be that Weidl is maybe not as experienced in the realm of cap management and contract building.

From an outside view, it would seem that Khan sets the budgets on what to spend where. I think Khan and Weidl work together on trades and Weidl is moreso the director of who to go and get.

Kinda ties back to my point though.  I think saying the changes are because of Weidl is overstating what created the changes.  And as I pointed to he might not (likely isn't since his background is scouting) be cap saavy, but Philly is loaded with business operations guys who are and Weidl could have brought one of them with him if he wanted to.  So leads me to believe the structure we see is what Khan wanted, the who is what Weidl brought.

Edit _ And granted not my team so who cares what I say on this, but if that was the case I would feel better about naming Khan VPoFO and Weidl GM just to make it harder to poach Weidl.  But that's what I wanted them to do with Colbert and Khan for years too.

Edited April 10 by warfelg

[Steeler Hitman]

On 4/6/2024 at 8:52 PM, warfelg said:

The last I'll say on this is that some of us (only tagging @43M and @Steeler Hitman because they have most often shared similar views) for years had tired of the year after year be just good enough to make or just miss the playoffs, tweak a few things here and there, and try to say "oh it's just a few plays" or "oh just one different coaching decision".

I am sorry that I did not get to respond to your post earlier.  But, Yes!!!  Just as there are small windows for QB's in the NFL to complete passes, there are small windows of opportunity to win. The Steelers had that window with the Killer Bee's who ended up killing their hopes.  I (and others) had been saying that they needed to start rebuilding then. 

For a while we wanted to see this team have a fresh perspective and new direction.  Someone who wasn't afraid to move on from guys who aren't into the system.  We wanted to see this team be aggressive to get some issues done.  But we all also said a few times that it was going to take some time and it wouldn't get done in one offseason.

Yes. The mistake was that they waited until the window closed.  AB imploded, Ben got hurt, and Bell moved on.  They did not pre-plan for this and their version of "all in" was not what many of us thought was realistic.  

Honestly, there's kinda some irony here in that 2021 we were in almost a same position, having lost Dupree, Hilton, Davis, Villanueva, Feiler, Pouncey, Nelson.  And we signed no where near the talent we just did with the biggest signings being Killebrew and Maulet, basically retaining Juju, Cam Sutton, Wormley, and Alualu.  Went into the draft with holes at CB, C, LT, ILB.  Yet we got smacked with the "oh it's fine do all this stuff for Ben."  And we spent our top 2 picks on RB and TE waiting for RD 3 to get a C, 4 to get LT and ILB, and 7 for a CB.

I think a lot should have "started" before 2021.  I had no problem with taking Najee #1.  It was a need and I felt like he was the best RB in the draft who had potential to be better.  The problem was that they never fixed the OL.  They waited far too long to address the age and change in dynamic for aging Big Ben and post Big Ben. 

Frankly, I know this team is far from complete.  And I know that there's a lot to still happen. Being ok with this team making a change like this and having a different philosophy as the past doesn't mean we don't still see these issues. 

Very true. 

Yet at the same time this is clearly the impact of having bad drafts for so many years.  You hit a point where you tend to have more holes than you can fill.

Bingo!!!!

IMO the only place Khan created a hole that didn't need to be there was WR2, but even then having a more cohesive group at the WR position and taking a potential poison out of the meeting room could be worth creating the hole.  Outside of that, it's hard to have a potential rookie starter not being worse than Cole, who rated 34 at C. 

I don't know what happened with Mason. I knew that he had a ceiling of average Center, but I never imagined his floor being as low as it was. He also was a very good teammate and locker room guy. 

RT is a "hole" in that you want Moore (who is terrible) out of the lineup and Jones moved to LT, but even if you don't get one you know you can survive it.  CB3 is a hole, and you night not "like" who they got as CB2 but in house they love him.  And even at that CB3 issue, this draft has a bunch of good ones you can pick up. 

You fix issues one position or pick at a time. Center is not an issue had they bothered to draft and develop someone going back six or seven years as Pouncey was aging and many of us suggested. This is not arrogant hindsight being perfect vision, but there have been too many non picks and unfortunately some misses. 

Again none of that isn't to say "oh it's fine" or whatever.  It's that it's not our usual MO of keeping guys like Pickett, DJ, Cole, Neal, Okorafor; resigning quickly guys like Wallace, Sullivan, Pierre, Watts.  It's refreshing to see the moving on from guys who weren't in.  It's refreshing to see even small bit time FA chasing with Queen.  Elliott, Johnston, and Patterson might not be huge name gets, but they were better players at their positions that we needed.

I think that Khan being here saw this as well. I am sure he had his ideas and concepts of how he would do things as well. I think Mr. Colbert felt obligated to get a QB before he left. Kenny was a little older, a little more mature and mentally tough, or so many of us thought. That's not to trash him. He did nt live up to what was expected. The move could have really set the franchise back.  This is coming from a Kenny Pickett fan. I still will root for the kid.  But based on what has come out, the team did what they thought was best for the Steelers and not a certain player or players (like Big Ben in the past). 

Would it have been nice to see them go after a C, sure.  But here's something to consider with that.  All of this years signings have 1 year outs.  All of last years signings had 1 year outs. Cushenberry, Biadasz, Brewer, Allegretti, Morse all have 2 year outs on their contracts. The only "top" FA corner to not have a 1st year out was Kendall Fuller, other than that if you wanted one of the top 3 names of Awuzie, Moore, or Bunting you had to hit the 2nd year out mark. That's something operational that's not going to change and likely a part of the reason why we didn't get a C via FA.

They went all in on Patrick Queen.  They picked the middle of the defense to fix via free agency. I think they try to fix the middle and RT on offense via the draft. 

 

[bigben07MVP]

https://x.com/steelersdepot/status/1778088948604322056?s=46&t=qcRuXjH2St1oLeP8Aph7Og
 

La Canfora reporting Steelers still trying to make a trade for a WR.

[Dcash4]

39 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

https://x.com/steelersdepot/status/1778088948604322056?s=46&t=qcRuXjH2St1oLeP8Aph7Og
 

La Canfora reporting Steelers still trying to make a trade for a WR.

I still don't understand their desire for a WR or why the made the choices they did at the position so far this year, but seems like too much smoke for their not to be a fire. 

[bigben07MVP]

1 minute ago, Dcash4 said:

I still don't understand their desire for a WR or why the made the choices they did at the position so far this year, but seems like too much smoke for their not to be a fire. 

I know WR2 isnt utilized in Arthur Smith’s offense as much as others but are you really comfortable with Pickens WR1 and Van Jefferson/Quez Watkins/Calvin Austin trio at WR2?

I think it’s pretty clear why they shipped DJ off - he was a part of the purge of guys they no longer wanted in the locker room. I wish that we got a better return for him but I can definitely see why they were ready to move on.

[Dcash4]

1 minute ago, bigben07MVP said:

I know WR2 isnt utilized in Arthur Smith’s offense as much as others but are you really comfortable with Pickens WR1 and Van Jefferson/Quez Watkins/Calvin Austin trio at WR2?

No, but this is largely my issue with their off-season to date. They created holes they didn't fill and between the starting vacancies WR feels more luxury with Smith than need.