GDT Week 6 - 10/16/22 - Baltimore Ravens (3-2) at NY Giants (4-1) = 1pm EST

[M.10.E]

6 minutes ago, baltimoreRebel said:

Harbaugh has been the definition of mediocre for the better half of 9 years.. 

I’m not going to defend any coaches after this last 20 games. It’s clear there is something systemically wrong with the team. 

[AngusMcFife]

17 minutes ago, baltimoreRebel said:

Another strike against EDC. He really has failed to surround Lamar with WR talent. 

But overall I'd say the talent of the roster is above-average, even if some positions are thin. 

I'd be much more interested in surrounding Lamar with a good offensive coach rather than adding more WRs. The OLine is good now that Stanley is back, the RBs are good but coming back from injury, and the TE1 is All-pro level.

[diamondbull424]

48 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Who was the 3rd legit weapon in 2019? Snead? Boyle? They were 3-4 in targets (46 and 43), I wouldn't classify either of them as anything legit. I think Duvernay right now is better than both of them. 

I think the thing that currently is racking my brain is that if we're struggling this much with Lamar on a rookie deal, I simply can't imagine how we're going to be this good or better once we pay Lamar. I'm having a very hard time seeing that happen.

So a few thoughts on this:

1) Sample size- I feel like with Bateman in the lineup Lamar looked to be operating at an MVP level and a Bateman return to the lineup could usher a return to Lamar MVP form. Without Bateman, he’s been in a slump, but it would be unfair to compare a whole season’s result to a 6 game result. Before in 3 of those games Lamar looked to be operating at an MVP level and even this game it was above average until the two 4th quarter turnovers down the stretch.

2) Slump- In 2019, Lamar also had a bit of a passing slump around this time of the year, it’s just that he was embarrassing defenses with his legs and winning games that we were able to discount that. Who cares if he passed for 80 passer rating when he did ‘The Spin’ for example (and no game this season has been worse than his 2019 performance against the Steelers). Thus it’s quite possible for Lamar to turn this slump around and rear into MVP form again.

3) Game Manager- In 2019 we had a great defense and an elite run game, so Lamar was asked be a game manager with elite legs. Conversely in 2022 our defense is.. less than satisfactory, so he’s having to be more passer than game manager, which opens him up to more risk.

4) Coaching- I think this team is pretty talented, but has suffered from a lack of coaching ability. Take the Giants and how they’re well coached, energetic, and disciplined and that’s allowed them to compete with teams that are far more talented, but with less discipline and desire. It’s possible that a new coach could be worse than what Harbaugh brings to the table with his even keel leadership, but it’s also possible that a new coaching staff could remove some of the systemic flaws that have been festering within this team for some time and makes up for a loss of an elite player ($20m is roughly the increase in what Lamar might be making over this season.)

[drd23]

1 hour ago, baltimoreRebel said:

Today sucked but let's not run off the rails here.

I feel asleep at half time.  Seems like that was a good thing given how mad this game has seemed to make so many people 😅

[santiagomn8]

Can we all just get along? Lol it’s pretty interesting seeing everyone’s opinions and how torn we are. I will say there is no reason to panic just yet. Obviously this is frustrating and something need to happen. I’m my opinion a coach firing or potentially a big trade something to galvanize the team and fan base. The face that we have Bateman, Bowser, Edwards, Houston, Ojabo and Stanley and Dobbins getting better that’s quite the lineup of reinforcements. I still have faith we can do something this season.
 

I will say I agree wholeheartedly that it’s time to get rid of Harbaugh. I like him as well but I’m my opinion it’s superb bowl or bust for him right now. If we fire him idk who is out there but maybe Eric Bieniemy and then Tag Lamar see what he does under the new coaching staff.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

47 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I read/listened to enough people who study a lot of film and have connections to coaches in the league say that Roman runs an uninspired and unsophisticated passing attack to believe that to be the case. 

It's also harsh to criticize the offense on days like today when they are missing Bateman, who is the only real WR we have that can threaten the D (although Duvernay is functional). 

Here's the thing - we weren't struggling to move the ball. At all. We moved the ball at will both passing and running. Then we shot ourselves in the foot or Lamar would turn it over. Is that on Roman? I recall precisely ONE bad playcall today and it was the 3rd and 5(?) QB Bash play where Lamar kept it when he should've given it to Drake, and we lost like 5 10 yards and punted instead of getting a FG. Even that play, if Lamar just reads correctly and hands it off to Drake, is a first down! So idk man...I know we all gripe about Roman and I know there's LOTS of evidence in the past that his passing concepts blow, but I'm seeing plays that work, get people open, and produce results. I'm also seeing players routinely fail to execute. 

Does that fall on Roman? Definitely an argument for it, yes, but I do think his scheme is producing desired situations.

39 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

It’s easier to blame a coach than your franchise qb. Both of them frankly kinda stink the last two seasons. 

Harbaugh saved his career by going all-in on Lamar and it bought him some extra time, but it looks like once again fans are getting really unhappy with his teams and the level of coaching overall.

22 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

So a few thoughts on this:

1) Sample size- I feel like with Bateman in the lineup Lamar looked to be operating at an MVP level and a Bateman return to the lineup could usher a return to Lamar MVP form. Without Bateman, he’s been in a slump, but it would be unfair to compare a whole season’s result to a 6 game result. Before in 3 of those games Lamar looked to be operating at an MVP level and even this game it was above average until the two 4th quarter turnovers down the stretch.

2) Slump- In 2019, Lamar also had a bit of a passing slump around this time of the year, it’s just that he was embarrassing defenses with his legs and winning games that we were able to discount that. Who cares if he passed for 80 passer rating when he did ‘The Spin’ for example (and no game this season has been worse than his 2019 performance against the Steelers). Thus it’s quite possible for Lamar to turn this slump around and rear into MVP form again.

3) Game Manager- In 2019 we had a great defense and an elite run game, so Lamar was asked be a game manager with elite legs. Conversely in 2022 our defense is.. less than satisfactory, so he’s having to be more passer than game manager, which opens him up to more risk.

4) Coaching- I think this team is pretty talented, but has suffered from a lack of coaching ability. Take the Giants and how they’re well coached, energetic, and disciplined and that’s allowed them to compete with teams that are far more talented, but with less discipline and desire. It’s possible that a new coach could be worse than what Harbaugh brings to the table with his even keel leadership, but it’s also possible that a new coaching staff could remove some of the systemic flaws that have been festering within this team for some time and makes up for a loss of an elite player ($20m is roughly the increase in what Lamar might be making over this season.)

1. There was a post in this thread that analyzed Lamar's play over the last 17 games (IE a full season) and he's average. Does Bateman change that, or was Lamar's production at the start of this year just another outlier of games? We'll find out once Bateman returns, but like I said this offense isn't really struggling to move the ball. We're struggling to score points, and a lot of it is Lamar making stupid mistakes constantly (along with penalties).
2. The difference is that Lamar in 2022 doesn't seem to want to run very much. There's been numerous times I've seen him with a clear field ahead of him, but he hesitates to run or just doesn't run at all and throws an incomplete pass. 2019 Lamar took off without second thought and made people look silly, and our offense was better for it. 2022 Lamar wants people to know he can pass, apparently.
3. But again here's the thing - Lamar is at his worst this year when we have a lead! We're asking him to be a game manager and he's failing. We were 31-2 in the Lamar era with a double-digit lead before this year. This year we're 2-3 and I also think the 2 losses we had previously came last year, too.
4. I absolutely agree with you here. I think it's well pointed out but our defensive coaching staff, IMO, is pretty bad from top to bottom (DL not included).
   1. But, like you said, are we willing to risk getting worse by firing Harbaugh and his coaching staff and re-tooling with Lamar, or do you just completely start over? Idk what the answer to that is. I just know that this coaching staff is not good, and whether that's too much nepotism/promoting Harbaugh's friends or what remains to be seen. We thought we saw improvement from our WR's with the addition of the 2 WR coaches, but that doesn't seem to be actually happening.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

18 minutes ago, drd23 said:

I feel asleep at half time.  Seems like that was a good thing given how mad this game has seemed to make so many people 😅

It was another game where we were completely in control for 3 quarters and melted down in the 4th. Par for the course.

[coordinator0]

I worked today so I'm also in the boat that it seems to be the best that I missed it. 

[diamondbull424]

31 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

There was a post in this thread that analyzed Lamar's play over the last 17 games (IE a full season) and he's average. Does Bateman change that, or was Lamar's production at the start of this year just another outlier of games? We'll find out once Bateman returns, but like I said this offense isn't really struggling to move the ball. We're struggling to score points, and a lot of it is Lamar making stupid mistakes constantly (along with penalties).

I don’t think last season is the best sample because of how depleted that team was. Now obviously there comes a point where it’s no longer reasons and it’s just excuses. There’s a fine line.

However last season the OL was below average to bad, and Bateman/Watkins were in and out of the lineup. Then the RB unit was trash. So if ever there’s a reason to remove data from a set, it would be that.

So personally I’d give it until the bye week. Hopefully Bateman should be back and healthy soon and we get 3-4 games of production with him in the lineup with Duv and Andrews. If we suddenly go back to putting up points with that lineup, then I think we’ve got our answer… we just need to get Lamar one additional WR weapon so that at any given time we should always have AT LEAST two strong WR options in the event of injury.

42 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

The difference is that Lamar in 2022 doesn't seem to want to run very much. There's been numerous times I've seen him with a clear field ahead of him, but he hesitates to run or just doesn't run at all and throws an incomplete pass. 2019 Lamar took off without second thought and made people look silly, and our offense was better for it. 2022 Lamar wants people to know he can pass, apparently.

I sort of pushback to this some. Now it’s been a few years so I could be misremembering, but I seem to recall a lot of arguments from back then where myself and other Ravens fans would argue against divisional opponents that Lamar wasn’t a scrambling guy and that most of his runs came off design. That generally he stayed in the pocket and went through his progressions vs the assumed one read and run QB he was assumed to be.

Conversely now he seems to operate in a similar fashion of staying in the pocket, though he seems to be better at throwing on the move as well as scrambling from the pocket vs operating off of designed runs. But I’d be curious as to everyone’s thoughts on this as perhaps I’m misremembering some.

59 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

But again here's the thing - Lamar is at his worst this year when we have a lead! We're asking him to be a game manager and he's failing. We were 31-2 in the Lamar era with a double-digit lead before this year. This year we're 2-3 and I also think the 2 losses we had previously came last year, too.

Yeah this part has been concerning. But I do think this could possibly be improved with the return of Gus Edwards and a power running game. But yeah I’ve been disappointed with Lamar’s regression as a game manager the last couple seasons. Feels like it’s hard for him to turn off “playmaker” mode and go back into “game manager” mode. That’s the next progression he needs to make.

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I absolutely agree with you here. I think it's well pointed out but our defensive coaching staff, IMO, is pretty bad from top to bottom (DL not included).

1. But, like you said, are we willing to risk getting worse by firing Harbaugh and his coaching staff and re-tooling with Lamar, or do you just completely start over? Idk what the answer to that is. I just know that this coaching staff is not good, and whether that's too much nepotism/promoting Harbaugh's friends or what remains to be seen. We thought we saw improvement from our WR's with the addition of the 2 WR coaches, but that doesn't seem to be actually happening.

 

I’ll give Weaver his flowers, though I also wonder how much of the improvements have been Calais Campbell the veteran assisting the young guys too.

Beyond that, I do think Keith Williams has helped the WRs improve and has developed Andrews from what he was to All Pro level, Duvernay has went from what he was to an impact option.

Whereas beyond that there’s only so much a coach can do to develop 4th and 5th round options. He’s taking guys to their next level and that’s all you can ask for out of coaches. Beyond that, I’m unsure if the pass game improvements that we’ve seen aren’t due to the addition of Tee Martin’s influence. If anything the offensive coaches brought on might be Harbaugh’s only saving grace if he doesn’t ship up.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

A fun little nugget that Jeff Z reported and I am trying to expand upon (though pfr has this info full blocked behind a paywall).

We have had 8 offensive drives this year end in the 4th quarter. Here's the results of those drives:

Outcome	Total	Pct
End of Game	3	37.5%
Fumble	2	25.0%
Punt	2	25.0%
Interception	1	12.5%
All Turnovers	3	37.5%
All Scores	0	.0%

Here's Jeff Z's tweet:

Basically: Our 4th quarter offense blows and is constantly turning the ball over.

EDIT: My chart above is clearly wrong. Just off the top of my head I know Lamar threw a 4th quarter touchdown to Andrews yesterday so I'm not sure why that wouldn't be appearing in my query results...

Edited October 17, 2022 by AFlaccoSeagulls

[Ray Reed]

16 hours ago, baltimoreRebel said:

Come on, man. This came off as weirdly personal. Been posting in here a long time, even before this account. DB, albeit long winded at times is a great poster. Sometimes he's a but reactionary but he's not weird. I enjoy his posting. I also enjoy yours too. 

Today sucked but let's not run off the rails here. 

Na, I stand by what I said. His first 2-3 posts in this thread were exclusively centered around complaining about me...either "not taking a hard enough stance" on something, or him accusing me of "crying wolf" and "not knowing how to take a loss" and proceeding to show me examples of how he thinks I should post in here and why how I post is wrong. He got into the personal waters first; I wasn't going to hold my tongue on how I feel. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ray Reed