MNF Week 17: Buffalo Bills @ Cincinnati Bengals

[paul-mac]

21 minutes ago, WheatieMan said:

They are not resuming the game this week. I mean, maybe tomorrow afternoon latest, and then Monday double header, however, CFB NCG is Monday night. Unless they are willing to play Bills/Pats and Ravens/Bengals at 4:00 ET on Monday.

I expect them to move the season back a week and cancel the Pro Bowl. But since the NFL has hyped that up as the first "flag football" game, it may be foreshadowing what's to come at every level in this game. Could go either way.

I think you play it as a tie and cut your losses. Then move Bills Bengals to a neutral field in the playoffs. I know that's, unheard of, but that should be on the table. Detroit would be a good location.

You could move the pro bowl back by 2 weeks to it’s old slot in the week after the SB.
 

3 minutes ago, WheatieMan said:

Typical NFL athlete probably has 40 beats per minute so .667 beats per second. So 0.02 beats per 30 msec. So you're talking about a time frame no more than a 2% window in the EKG.

During a game? No chance. 40 bpm is a very good resting heart rate but during a high intensity football game, it’s going way higher than that. 

[Calamity_Cometh]

2 minutes ago, paul-mac said:

You could move the pro bowl back by 2 weeks to it’s old slot in the week after the SB.
 

During a game? No chance. 40 bpm is a very good resting heart rate but during a high intensity football game, it’s going way higher than that. 

Yeah closing in for a tackle during a sprint has got to be 110+. Or at least far more than a resting heart rate. Again, not a cardiologist, but the stress alone of being thrust into that spotlight and situation will raise it.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Calamity_Cometh

[WheatieMan]

Then it's closer to 10% danger window requiring a certain blunt force to the area. Very dangerous, but again, can the PPE be tweaked to absorb that force more than it does now? We just haven't seen this ever at the professional football level. This should be way more common in NFL than MLB. What about a soccer ball in the chest? A well hit soccer ball is safer at those speeds than a typical NFL hit to the chest? I don't know.

Edited January 3, 2023 by WheatieMan

[Calamity_Cometh]

2 minutes ago, WheatieMan said:

Then it's closer to 10-15% danger window requiring a certain blunt force to the area. Very dangerous, but again, can the PPE be tweaked to absorb that force more than it does now? We just haven't seen this ever at the professional level.

Perhaps. I'm horrendously under qualified to answer this question as it involves complex physics formulas and knowledge of human anatomy and possibly materials science.

[paul-mac]

Just now, WheatieMan said:

Then it's closer to 10-15% danger window requiring a certain blunt force to the area. Very dangerous, but again, can the PPE be tweaked to absorb that force more than it does now? We just haven't seen this ever at the professional level.

I was doing some reading about this Commotio cordis and apparently the majority of victims are actually young boys because by the time you reach adulthood, your thorax has developed enough to protect you against the sort of hits the trigger it. If this is indeed what’s happened here, then I’m sure we will see PPE developments and rule changes to prevent it happening again, but it does seem like it’s a freak accident rather than something you’ll see regularly. 

[Calamity_Cometh]

Also it is important to note that commotio cordis has not been confirmed, as many have alluded to.

[deltarich87]

Absolutely stunned by all of this. Wasn't home or watching the game but got texts in a group chat with friends during the game mentioning this and showing video of the incident and simply thought it was some concussion incident and wondering why they were all so concerned. Had no idea the game was postponed or the seriousness of the situation at the time

Cannot believe the NFL really thought they were gonna continue this game eventually after that situation. Glad to see common sense prevail and this irrelevant game didn't continue and all the focus put on this young mans life. Fortunately this situation occured with a ton of medical experts around so hopefully that's gonna be the difference in him surviving this ordeal.

 

[HoboRocket]

My mom entered cardiac arrest, was stabilized in critical condition, was in a coma for three days, was ruled brain dead, and ended up passing away the very end of 2020. Hearts go out to his family. 

[Calamity_Cometh]

21 minutes ago, deltarich87 said:

Absolutely stunned by all of this. Wasn't home or watching the game but got texts in a group chat with friends during the game mentioning this and showing video of the incident and simply thought it was some concussion incident and wondering why they were all so concerned. Had no idea the game was postponed or the seriousness of the situation at the time

Cannot believe the NFL really thought they were gonna continue this game eventually after that situation. Glad to see common sense prevail and this irrelevant game didn't continue and all the focus put on this young mans life. Fortunately this situation occured with a ton of medical experts around so hopefully that's gonna be the difference in him surviving this ordeal.

 

I initially condemned the NFL but as my head cooled and experts started chiming in - I realized that it was an adequate response.

The delay in calling the game keeps the stadiums occupants in their seats. Had they called it before Hamlin was out of there, it could have jeopardized his safety further by creating traffic.

A lot gets lost in the chaos of the moment.

[candyman93]

Kinda glad somebody mentioned this. People get WAY too emotional at times and don’t think clearly.

 

The NFL is not going to just immediately snap their fingers and tell 65,000+ people to just leave right then and there. If a bunch of people got into accidents fans would be ripping the NFL for rushing people too quick.

 

 

[Calamity_Cometh]

31 minutes ago, HoboRocket said:

My mom entered cardiac arrest, was stabilized in critical condition, was in a coma for three days, was ruled brain dead, and ended up passing away the very end of 2020. Hearts go out to his family. 

I'm sorry to hear it. I lost family in 2020 as well. I hope you and yours are at peace.

[warfelg]

6 hours ago, Norm said:

IDK what to do there. The world doesn't need to stop over it but I get you. Weirdly feel bad for Donovan just because that would dominate the news if it wasn't for this. It's not that it's right or wrong or anything. I'm sure he doesn't care. But yeah this is what we should care about.

I did have to get off ESPN but the old lady and I are talking about it after she got home. She's being pretty wait and see about it but she thinks she knows that happened but that's not her style to do that stuff. 

NBA usually threads game results. I was talking with the GF about it and a simple “As we post tonight’s results please take a moment to think of Damar Hamlin” should be the first post of that, then update everything under that in a thread.

Edited January 3, 2023 by warfelg

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, WheatieMan said:

Then it's closer to 10% danger window requiring a certain blunt force to the area. Very dangerous, but again, can the PPE be tweaked to absorb that force more than it does now? We just haven't seen this ever at the professional football level. This should be way more common in NFL than MLB. What about a soccer ball in the chest? A well hit soccer ball is safer at those speeds than a typical NFL hit to the chest? I don't know.

I hate to sounds super callus right on the heels of this, but I don't think there's much you can do based on something that was the potential cause with such an astronomically small chance of happening.  Shoulder pads are more about spreading the impact throughout an area rather than over one area.  I know in HS lacrosse there was minimum standards of what the pads had to protect (down to the base of the sternum, over the caps of the shoulders, at least when I played).  They can maybe require the shoulder pads to go down a certain depth.  

But just think - of the millions of hits to happen in the NFL this is the first time ever someone has suffer cardiac arrest and it may be tied to the hit he took.  The reason why its more common in young people is there's much less protecting the heart than developed bodies, and they always show it in baseball terms because the impact of a baseball is such a concentrated area.  Soccer balls disperse that more and aren't moving nearly as fast.  

It's a deeply disturbing event.  It's something that will long effect some of those players on both teams.  Tee Higgins is going to be living with that for a long time.  But (and I know this will sound absurdist) the only way to prevent this is to take hitting out of the game.  No matter how much you work to protect players from something like this, the right hit to the right part of the chest, at the right time, with the right force this will happen.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying to just accept that cardiac arrest is now something we know can happen playing the game.  Rather what happened is just an unthinkable occurrence.  It's something responders train for at sporting events and hope to never have to actually do.  

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 hours ago, Calamity_Cometh said:

Perhaps. I'm horrendously under qualified to answer this question as it involves complex physics formulas and knowledge of human anatomy and possibly materials science.

Differences between drugs that prolong QT interval on the ECG will make a bigger difference than the slight differences between the resting heart rate of an athlete versus the rest of the population. There are drug cocktails that can take a QT from a handful of milliseconds to half a second in a healthy person no problem.

If this was the cause, I wouldn't be surprised if we find out he's on medication down the line. (Which is good, ideally this gives us a way to screen and protect people who may be vulnerable instead of limiting this to a random, freak occurrence.)

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 hours ago, WheatieMan said:

This should be way more common in NFL than MLB. What about a soccer ball in the chest? A well hit soccer ball is safer at those speeds than a typical NFL hit to the chest? I don't know.

The equation that adds force to the ball is f=ma, which is equal (assuming a frictionless vacuum) to the pressure that the force from the ball displaces on the body P=F/SA, where SA is the surface area.

The light weight of a soccer ball or football, plus the big size relative to a baseball means it will be much easier for a pitcher to transmit more pressure to the chest of a batter than a soccer player to take someone out with a header.

Edited January 3, 2023 by ramssuperbowl99