Trade Deadline Discussion and Proposals

[DirtyDez]

 

[General Tso]

47 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

Your making a very silly assumption that modern voters are adjusting and fixing the issues of the past. I guarantee you if the Nuggets were coming off back to back championships and Jokic dominated the playoffs and finals clearly establishing himself as the greatest player in the world he would not win a 3rd MVP.  
 

Instead he’s a perineal early playoff exit who’s never put a team on his back in the big games during an generation obsessed with alphabet stats to make them feel smart so he’s still the favorite.  

?? Now I know you're capping. He led his team in points rebound and assists during the GS series last year. From the Center position, a position that is continually getting devalued in an era of small ball.

What else do you want from this man?

[Mox]

11 minutes ago, General Tso said:

?? Now I know you're capping. He led his team in points rebound and assists during the GS series last year. From the Center position, a position that is continually getting devalued in an era of small ball.

What else do you want from this man?

People give Kobe credit for his 2006 carry job and somehow don't realize Jokic did the same thing last year except better. 

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, BigC421/ said:

Your making a very silly assumption that modern voters are adjusting and fixing the issues of the past. I guarantee you if the Nuggets were coming off back to back championships and Jokic dominated the playoffs and finals clearly establishing himself as the greatest player in the world he would not win a 3rd MVP.  
 

Instead he’s a perineal early playoff exit who’s never put a team on his back in the big games during an generation obsessed with alphabet stats to make them feel smart so he’s still the favorite.  

You guarantee it, huh?

If that's your takeaway from watching the Nuggets in the playoffs the last few seasons, then you have a grudge against Jokic.

[BigC421/]

1 hour ago, General Tso said:

?? Now I know you're capping. He led his team in points rebound and assists during the GS series last year. From the Center position, a position that is continually getting devalued in an era of small ball.

What else do you want from this man?

Idk victory? There’s a big difference in stat packing and putting a team on your back on the biggest stage and winning.  
 

Also the context of what I said wasn’t even a knock on Jokic himself, I’m not expecting those things from him per say I said IF he did that they wouldn’t give him another MVP. Which is a Jok (pun intended) 

Golden State also wasn’t some great TEAM last year either Steph put them on his back and won the games they needed.  Jokic has a lot of career left and could use some help but he hasn’t won anything yet.  He also seems to get a bit of a pass on this for some reason where other all time greats are shredded every time they come up short regardless of supporting cast or individual stats.

[Herbie_Hancock]

1 minute ago, BigC421/ said:

Idk victory? There’s a big difference in stat packing and putting a team on your back on the biggest stage and winning.  
 

Also the context of what I said wasn’t even a knock on Jokic himself, I’m not expecting those things from him per say I said IF he did that they wouldn’t give him another MVP. Which is a Jok (pun intended) 

Golden State also wasn’t some great TEAM last year either Steph put them on his back and won the games they needed.  Jokic has a lot of career left and could use some help but he hasn’t won anything yet.  He also seems to get a bit of a pass on this for some reason where other all time greats are shredded every time they come up short regardless of supporting cast or individual stats.

I agree. 

[Mox]

16 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

Idk victory? There’s a big difference in stat packing and putting a team on your back on the biggest stage and winning.  
 

Also the context of what I said wasn’t even a knock on Jokic himself, I’m not expecting those things from him per say I said IF he did that they wouldn’t give him another MVP. Which is a Jok (pun intended) 

Golden State also wasn’t some great TEAM last year either Steph put them on his back and won the games they needed.  Jokic has a lot of career left and could use some help but he hasn’t won anything yet.  He also seems to get a bit of a pass on this for some reason where other all time greats are shredded every time they come up short regardless of supporting cast or individual stats.

I think you need to reevaluate your thoughts about Jokic if this is the type of stuff you're posting.

I can't think of one superstar in NBA history less interested in stat padding than Jokic. If that's where you were going with this then there is no point continuing. If you mean stat packing as in filling the box score, yeah he does that but also with super-elite efficiency and impact. His box stats actually underrate how good he is because he doesn't care about posting big numbers.

There is a pretty obvious reason why he hasn't done a whole lot of postseason winning to this point and why he's "gotten a pass". Why do you think that is?

This is the exact same thing people said about LeBron and Jordan before they won rings. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Bullet Club

[seminoles1]

16 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

Idk victory? There’s a big difference in stat packing and putting a team on your back on the biggest stage and winning.  
 

Also the context of what I said wasn’t even a knock on Jokic himself, I’m not expecting those things from him per say I said IF he did that they wouldn’t give him another MVP. Which is a Jok (pun intended) 

Golden State also wasn’t some great TEAM last year either Steph put them on his back and won the games they needed.  Jokic has a lot of career left and could use some help but he hasn’t won anything yet.  He also seems to get a bit of a pass on this for some reason where other all time greats are shredded every time they come up short regardless of supporting cast or individual stats.

Who was Jokic's best teammate in the playoffs last year? When your team is completely outclassed, then you really shouldn't get hate unless you suck. Jokic has been awesome. His team was decimated with injuries last year. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone hold "stat padding" against someone in the playoffs.

That team Steph carried had 4 other players better than Jokic's best teammate. I don't understand what you expect here. Holding him to a standard of "getting wins in the playoffs" and accusing him of stat padding while so hilariously outgunned is wild.

Edit: What do you mean by "stat packing"?

Edited February 10, 2023 by seminoles1

[BigC421/]

7 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

 

Edit: What do you mean by "stat packing"?

I don’t mean it a negative way like he’s only interested in his numbers or he’s getting his stats at the detriment of team success.  He’s a great player and he puts up great numbers.  However there are and have been others who are just better basketball players that don’t put up the same stat accumulation. 
 

Jokic is not in the same stratosphere as Jordan or Lebron so I’m not even going there but the criticism they faced at the same points in there careers was 100x what Jokic faces. For good reason though. They were better players with higher expectations 

No ones scarred to play the Nuggets in the playoffs period. If u put prime Curry, Durant ect on just about any team the opposition is worried that player might just go off and take there throats.  I don’t think Jokic as great as he is really puts that fear in people. I don’t want this to sound as bad as it could but he’s almost like the greatest roll player of modern basketball he’s just so good at it he’s a top5 player in the league 

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, BigC421/ said:

I don’t mean it a negative way like he’s only interested in his numbers or he’s getting his stats at the detriment of team success.  He’s a great player and he puts up great numbers.  However there are and have been others who are just better basketball players that don’t put up the same stat accumulation. 
 

Jokic is not in the same stratosphere as Jordan or Lebron so I’m not even going there but the criticism they faced at the same points in there careers was 100x what Jokic faces. For good reason though. They were better players with higher expectations 

No ones scarred to play the Nuggets in the playoffs period. If u put prime Curry, Durant ect on just about any team the opposition is worried that player might just go off and take there throats.  I don’t think Jokic as great as he is really puts that fear in people. I don’t want this to sound as bad as it could but he’s almost like the greatest roll player of modern basketball he’s just so good at it he’s a top5 player in the league 

Okay, fair. I definitely was reading that as stat-padding, so my bad.

Yeah, let's leave out the 2 best perimeter players ever when comparing Jokic to others. Not exactly fair.

I would disagree, and so do NBA players about being "scared" to play against him.

I don't know who to compare him to. He's not someone who wants to hunt his shot, but he is more than capable of dominating the scoreboard when it's needed. He's proven that in the playoffs multiple times. I guess like a modern Magic Johnson. Were teams afraid of his scoring ability? No, not compared to his overall feel and manipulation of the court. But if and when he needed to, he could put points on the board. Jokic is a better scorer than Magic, though.

You just clearly have a lesser opinion of Jokic than most, and I honestly don't know why. The one thing you could be holding over his head...you just aren't, so it seems more personal to me.

Edited February 10, 2023 by seminoles1

[Mox]

For those who don't have an out of touch preconceptions about Nikola Jokic, allow me to illustrate how great he is.

Jokic became an elite player in 2019, where at age 23 he led the Nuggets to the 2-seed in the West. They lost in seven games to the Blazers in the 2nd round. Jokic averaged 27-14-8 on 52-46-83 splits in that series. The Nuggets were +59 on the court with Jokic in that series, and -46 with him off. Oh, and the rest of his team shot 40.1% from the floor. 

In 2020 Jokic led Denver to the 3-seed. At age 24 he led the Nuggets to the Western Conference Finals against the Lakers, who ended up winning the title that season. After averaging 20-10-7 on 60.5% TS in the regular season, Jokic ended up posting 24-10-6 on 61.4% TS in the postseason. However, his series against the Lakers was only 21-7-6 and they were bounced in five games. 

In 2021, Jokic made a giant leap to MVP-level player (winning the award), averaging 26-11-8, and led Denver to the 3-seed again. However, Jamal Murray, widely considered the second best player on the team was injured and missed 21 of the last 22 games of the year and the entire postseason. The Nuggets still advanced to the second round despite not having Murray or Will Barton. They were then bounced in round 2 against the Western Conference champion Phoenix Suns. Jokic averaged 30-12-5 on 59% TS in this postseason.

In 2022, Murray's injury lingered and then Michael Porter Jr., regarded as the next best player on that team, was knocked out for the season as well. The roster Jokic worked with for the rest of the season (players who played more than 30 games) was Will Barton, Aaron Gordon, Monte Morris, Jeff Green, Austin Rivers, Bones Hyland, Facundo Campazzo, Bryn Forbes, DeMarcus Cousins, Zeke Nnaji, and Markus Howard. VORP (Value over replacement player) is a measure of how valuable a player is over a replacement level NBA player. This Nuggets roster outside of Jokic combined for a 2.7 VORP. For comparisons sake, the 2006 Lakers in a "less statistically crazy era" had a 5.6 combined VORP outside of Kobe. 2006 Lamar Odom himself had a higher VORP then all of Jokic's teammates combined. So Jokic was working with a historically bad cast.

Don't trust VORP? The team went 2-6 without Jokic that season. That's a 20-win pace, and they were outscored by 7 ppg, which would've ranked 25th in the NBA. To overcome this Jokic took on an even larger offensive role. He averaged more points, and rebounds (becoming the best contested rebounder in the NBA in the process), than his MVP season on even better efficiency. 27 ppg on ~+10% rTS (TS% above league average) is absolutely absurd. He also did that with elite playmaking, which resulted in him breaking the NBA PER record and leading the NBA in literally every advanced and impact stat available. This herculean effort was not wasted. With Jokic they went 46-28 (a 51-win pace) and they ended up the 6 seed in the West. Unfortunately, they matched up with the Warriors, who won the title, and were bounced in round one. Despite this Jokic averaged 31-13-6 on 64% TS, literally by himself against the team that won the title that year.

Now in 2023, his two best teammates have come back, and 'suddenly' the Nuggets are the 1-seed in the West. Jokic has scaled down his scoring to get the others involved.  His already ludicrous efficiency and playmaking have skyrocketed to levels we've never seen before. Jokic is currently averaging 25-11-10 on 70% TS. The volume he's scoring at this efficiency is beyond absurd. He's also leading the NBA in every advanced and impact stat for the third consecutive year, while laughably being 2nd in the NBA in assists as C.

While MPJ and Murray being back obviously helps, something people need to realize is Jokic has never played with another All Star teammate in his career. Adding two above average starters was all it took to jump to the 1-seed. Am I exaggerating? No. The Nuggets are 3-5 this season without Jokic (31-win pace, outscored by 4.4 ppg-26th in the NBA) and 35-13 with him (60-win pace). They are +13.4 with him on the court, and -10.5 with him off the court. That's your 1-seed supporting cast. Look at Aaron Gordon's efficiency pre-Den and then on Denver. Look how much playing with Jokic skyrockets his efficiency because of the attention dedicated to Joker and his absurd creation abilities.

I haven't even touched on the fact that he's the greatest passing C ever by a huge margin, and likely the greatest offensive C ever. There is no one else like him in NBA history. His goofy looks and clumsy mannerisms might be tricking you into thinking he's not absolutely dominant as both a scorer and playmaker but he is. The dude is a certified basketball genius. Let me make a grand statement that might put this into perspective for some even though it's already quite obvious. Nikola Jokic is better than Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant have ever been. The sooner you realize it the better because he's not going away. Don't be the guy who said Jordan wasn't good enough because "He's too selfish to win a title". Don't be the guy who said "Who cares about the numbers? Kobe's better because he has rings". Don't be the guy thinking Kobe averaging 36 ppg makes his 2006 carryjob more impressive than Jokic's in 2022. You'll be on the wrong side of history just like they were.

[Sllim Pickens]

3 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

Idk victory? There’s a big difference in stat packing and putting a team on your back on the biggest stage and winning.  
 

Also the context of what I said wasn’t even a knock on Jokic himself, I’m not expecting those things from him per say I said IF he did that they wouldn’t give him another MVP. Which is a Jok (pun intended) 

Golden State also wasn’t some great TEAM last year either Steph put them on his back and won the games they needed.  Jokic has a lot of career left and could use some help but he hasn’t won anything yet.  He also seems to get a bit of a pass on this for some reason where other all time greats are shredded every time they come up short regardless of supporting cast or individual stats.

MJ didn't get shredded for not making it past the first round without Pippen.  Kobe doesn't get shredded for missing the playoffs between Shaq and Gasol.  Duncan never played without Duncan or Parker/Manu.  Everyone understands its hard for Luka to do much with the so so supporting cast he has had and always say get him some help, which they finally did.  Context is always included when evaluating greats and MVPs.  Giannis isn't bashed for not winning before Holiday and others came to help.  Maybe at the end of his career there will be some discussion but Malone and Stockton are still all time great without winning anything and only getting to the finals once. 

Last year the next two best players on Denver were hurt in the playoffs and most of the year. Unless you're young Lebron, nobody can advance in the playoffs alone. 

I agree if he had won more there would be some more voter fatigue, but also this is his best year yet, and the team is having their best regular season yet so it will be hard to argue any other way at this point.  Tatum has a case, Giannis has a case, and Luka if he comes back soon and keeps dominating will have a case but none are doing what Jokic is at this point. 

[Spartica4Real]

According to Zach Lowe, Grizzlies were willing to offer every single pick and pick swap for KD but the Nets never really worked with them as they wanted to send KD to his preferred destination. KD on the Grizzlies would've been nasty but those guys seem like they need to be humbled a bit more first lol.

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, Spartica4Real said:

According to Zach Lowe, Grizzlies were willing to offer every single pick and pick swap for KD but the Nets never really worked with them as they wanted to send KD to his preferred destination. KD on the Grizzlies would've been nasty but those guys seem like they need to be humbled a bit more first lol.

We also offered 3 1sts for OG.

[redsoxsuck05]

Being better at defense doesn't make Giannis a better two-way player than Jokic lol. We call it "two-way" because offense counts too.