The STL Cardinals Thread - New Season, Same Old Cardinals?

[ThatJerkDave]

Went again today.  

Big Chicken is the best thing about the Cardinals this season, by far.

De La Cruz from the Reds is going to be really good.

Waino is washed.  It is time to let it go.  Retire at mid season.  It is over.

Walker is exciting, but he has a major hole in his game.  I am not exactly sure what pitch it was, I believe it was some kind of outside junk pitch, but he swings at it every time, and does not come close to connecting.  

Once again, the jerk manager doesn't put in Gallegos, so I don't get any Indio Enamorado.  

I don't see any value in Brendan Donovan or Whateverhisnameis Burleson.

 

[CWood21]

17 minutes ago, holt_bruce81 said:

Hard for me to root against this team, I’ll cheer for wins every game they play. But I know if they keep losing it forces change and that’s what we need. 

They're not going to suddenly solve their issues.  We're done with over 40% of the regular season, and we're in last place in the NL Central and 3rd worst record in the NL.

[ttitansfan4life]

 

[StLunatic88]

The leaders of the NL Central just went 1-5 against the Oakland A's this week..... And we didnt gain a single game on them, that is just AWFUL

I know some people continue to do the "what does Firing Oli do? Hes not at the plate, hes not on the mound, etc, etc." And alot of times I can get behind that reasoning, But it has been so long that ALL of these things are broken, You can no lionger keep saying "well the plyers have to play". Something is Fundamentally broken with this team, and Id argue many things are.

We are way too invested in trying to our "advantage" everyone, we are no longer letting the data support how we play, we are letting it drive how we play. Thats not a revelation to pitching with this team (I cant find the stat right now, but we are way behind the curve (literally) in pitching strategy, as we are throwing way more fastballs than the rest of the league) but now it is infiltrating the hitting! Its not just an anomaly that we are putrid with RISP, that is a mindset/approach thing. On law of average alone, it doesnt make sense.

I also cant fathom that we are now playing 3 Infielders in the OF on many nights. I know that it is impacted by Injuries, but how can that possibly be something the organization is comfortable with. At best we have been playing 3 LFs in half the games recently (how are we just getting around to moving Walker into LF?) 

 

Honestly, Im done with this team. What they are rolling out there is not going to make some kind of magical run. Time to salvage what we can for future parts. It does seem counter intuitive, but I wouldnt send Goldschmidt anywhere, I think he wants to be here and wants to end his career here (which at this rate he has a handful left) and I do believe this could be a quick turnaround if the DeWitt's commit to it (new Coaching staff, reign in Mo & Co or just move on, and time for a philosophical shift) But send out Jack and then if we arent comfortable giving him a contract right now then send out Montgomery. Im even at the point to just take what we can get for Hicks and Helsley (too many of our BP guys still think they can be starters in recent years). Send Burleson's bat to someone, because we now have a logjam at DH, get as much as you can for Edman before he has no value left (WInn should be the SS next season) and beg someone to take DeJong away for the rest of the year. We have been dragging our feet with too many of these guys for too long. And dont get me wrong, Id say it about the OF too, if they werent all hurt right now. SO hopefully they come back and hit a little bit, and we can spin them at the actual deadline.

Bring up the youngsters now, Let Pallante, Liberatore, McGreevy and even Graceffo (if he is healthy enough) come up and throw a ton of innings this season, so we know who we can rely on in 2024. Bring up Herrera and let him catch like half the games (trade Knizer too). Make sure Gorman plays every day at 2nd, left Donovan be the SS until we pull up Masyn WInn (sooner the better) and get him some Major League ABs this year.

[JonStark]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

The leaders of the NL Central just went 1-5 against the Oakland A's this week..... And we didnt gain a single game on them, that is just AWFUL

I know some people continue to do the "what does Firing Oli do? Hes not at the plate, hes not on the mound, etc, etc." And alot of times I can get behind that reasoning, But it has been so long that ALL of these things are broken, You can no lionger keep saying "well the plyers have to play". Something is Fundamentally broken with this team, and Id argue many things are.

We are way too invested in trying to our "advantage" everyone, we are no longer letting the data support how we play, we are letting it drive how we play. Thats not a revelation to pitching with this team (I cant find the stat right now, but we are way behind the curve (literally) in pitching strategy, as we are throwing way more fastballs than the rest of the league) but now it is infiltrating the hitting! Its not just an anomaly that we are putrid with RISP, that is a mindset/approach thing. On law of average alone, it doesnt make sense.

I also cant fathom that we are now playing 3 Infielders in the OF on many nights. I know that it is impacted by Injuries, but how can that possibly be something the organization is comfortable with. At best we have been playing 3 LFs in half the games recently (how are we just getting around to moving Walker into LF?) 

 

Honestly, Im done with this team. What they are rolling out there is not going to make some kind of magical run. Time to salvage what we can for future parts. It does seem counter intuitive, but I wouldnt send Goldschmidt anywhere, I think he wants to be here and wants to end his career here (which at this rate he has a handful left) and I do believe this could be a quick turnaround if the DeWitt's commit to it (new Coaching staff, reign in Mo & Co or just move on, and time for a philosophical shift) But send out Jack and then if we arent comfortable giving him a contract right now then send out Montgomery. Im even at the point to just take what we can get for Hicks and Helsley (too many of our BP guys still think they can be starters in recent years). Send Burleson's bat to someone, because we now have a logjam at DH, get as much as you can for Edman before he has no value left (WInn should be the SS next season) and beg someone to take DeJong away for the rest of the year. We have been dragging our feet with too many of these guys for too long. And dont get me wrong, Id say it about the OF too, if they werent all hurt right now. SO hopefully they come back and hit a little bit, and we can spin them at the actual deadline.

Bring up the youngsters now, Let Pallante, Liberatore, McGreevy and even Graceffo (if he is healthy enough) come up and throw a ton of innings this season, so we know who we can rely on in 2024. Bring up Herrera and let him catch like half the games (trade Knizer too). Make sure Gorman plays every day at 2nd, left Donovan be the SS until we pull up Masyn WInn (sooner the better) and get him some Major League ABs this year.

I'm on board with all of that except I'd rather deal Donovan than Edman. It's basically a toss up, but Edman has been arguably gold glove caliber wherever he plays. If the difference in returns is that significant then fine, but I'd much rather hold onto him.

[StLunatic88]

47 minutes ago, JonStark said:

I'm on board with all of that except I'd rather deal Donovan than Edman. It's basically a toss up, but Edman has been arguably gold glove caliber wherever he plays. If the difference in returns is that significant then fine, but I'd much rather hold onto him.

Thats where the Edman thing comes from. I think he has much better value, and he is a MIF, not an actual OF. Donovan is a true Utility man, and by the time He hits his first Arbitration, Edman will be hitting Free Agency

[kgarrett12486]

I just do not understand the roster decisions this team continues to make. Placing Helsley on the IL today and what do we do? Go back to Jake Woodford. Why are we not giving an opportunity to a guys like Jake Walsh? He's on the 40 man, but we keep going back to the guy we know doesn't have the stuff and has shown that's he's a AAAA guy...

They are doing the same thing with keeping Oscar Mercado on the roster over giving a guy like Moises Gomez a look...

They kept Bakker down in AAA way too long and it was evident to all...

We're keeping Jose Fermin with a 40 man roster spot, but he's literrally MIA...

Edited June 12, 2023 by kgarrett12486

[kgarrett12486]

3 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

The leaders of the NL Central just went 1-5 against the Oakland A's this week..... And we didnt gain a single game on them, that is just AWFUL

I know some people continue to do the "what does Firing Oli do? Hes not at the plate, hes not on the mound, etc, etc." And alot of times I can get behind that reasoning, But it has been so long that ALL of these things are broken, You can no lionger keep saying "well the plyers have to play". Something is Fundamentally broken with this team, and Id argue many things are.

We are way too invested in trying to our "advantage" everyone, we are no longer letting the data support how we play, we are letting it drive how we play. Thats not a revelation to pitching with this team (I cant find the stat right now, but we are way behind the curve (literally) in pitching strategy, as we are throwing way more fastballs than the rest of the league) but now it is infiltrating the hitting! Its not just an anomaly that we are putrid with RISP, that is a mindset/approach thing. On law of average alone, it doesnt make sense.

I also cant fathom that we are now playing 3 Infielders in the OF on many nights. I know that it is impacted by Injuries, but how can that possibly be something the organization is comfortable with. At best we have been playing 3 LFs in half the games recently (how are we just getting around to moving Walker into LF?) 

 

Honestly, Im done with this team. What they are rolling out there is not going to make some kind of magical run. Time to salvage what we can for future parts. It does seem counter intuitive, but I wouldnt send Goldschmidt anywhere, I think he wants to be here and wants to end his career here (which at this rate he has a handful left) and I do believe this could be a quick turnaround if the DeWitt's commit to it (new Coaching staff, reign in Mo & Co or just move on, and time for a philosophical shift) But send out Jack and then if we arent comfortable giving him a contract right now then send out Montgomery. Im even at the point to just take what we can get for Hicks and Helsley (too many of our BP guys still think they can be starters in recent years). Send Burleson's bat to someone, because we now have a logjam at DH, get as much as you can for Edman before he has no value left (WInn should be the SS next season) and beg someone to take DeJong away for the rest of the year. We have been dragging our feet with too many of these guys for too long. And dont get me wrong, Id say it about the OF too, if they werent all hurt right now. SO hopefully they come back and hit a little bit, and we can spin them at the actual deadline.

Bring up the youngsters now, Let Pallante, Liberatore, McGreevy and even Graceffo (if he is healthy enough) come up and throw a ton of innings this season, so we know who we can rely on in 2024. Bring up Herrera and let him catch like half the games (trade Knizer too). Make sure Gorman plays every day at 2nd, left Donovan be the SS until we pull up Masyn WInn (sooner the better) and get him some Major League ABs this year.

This whole division is a dumpster fire and just magnifies how poorly the Cardinals actually are. At this point, it really has no bearing IMO if they fire Oli now. It's not gonna affect the outcome of this team/season. This team is not going to rally and go on a 'magical' run, they just are too poorly constructed and there are a lot of questions out there for me with these core supplemental guys. 

Even if they do fire Oli, this organization is just going to plug in Joe McEwing or Stubby Clapp as the interim manager and then likely give them a leg-up on becoming the permanent manager after the season vs. going outside the orgaization. If I'm DeWitt, this is an off-season move to me and it's going to be more than just Oli getting the chopping block, I'm purging most of, if not all of the staff. I'm also having a long conversation with MO and his philosophy/message this organization has been living on for the last 18+ years. Like I've said, no matter how good it is, eventually it becomes complacent and stale and I think we've reached that point and it's time to adapt/change. If not, might be time to move on if there is resistance. 

What this team should be focusing on IMO, is like you elluded too - the deadline and maximizing their assets they can get in return to do a retool of this roster and give them ammunition for the offseason on the trade front. They should be doing a 2022 Cincinatti Reds approach. Just look at the return they got for they're pitching last year. Granted, you're not going to get the (3) really good prospects like they got for Mahle (who still had control left), or an ace like Castillo, but you can still probably pull (1) of those high end guys for a Flaherty for example. You take that all day. This deadline trade market for pitching looks to be trash and we need to capitalize on it. They should be making every effort to deal the likes of Flagherty, Monty, Stratton, Hicks, Gio, Helsley. I'm listening to any offer on any position player not named Gorman, Walker, Arenado and Goldy. Those are the (4) peices that I'm continuing to build around on offense. I'm playing Dylan Carlson everyday to see how he responds and if he is in my future.   

Edited June 12, 2023 by kgarrett12486

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, kgarrett12486 said:

This whole division is a dumpster fire and just magnifies how poorly the Cardinals actually are. At this point, it really has no bearing IMO if they fire Oli now. It's not gonna affect the outcome of this team/season. This team is not going to rally and go on a 'magical' run, they just are too poorly constructed and there are a lot of questions out there for me with these core supplemental guys. 

Even if they do fire Oli, this organization is just going to plug in Joe McEwing or Stubby Clapp as the interim manager and then likely give them a leg-up on becoming the permanent manager after the season vs. going outside the orgaization. If I'm DeWitt, this is an off-season move to me and it's going to be more than just Oli getting the chopping block, I'm purging most of, if not all of the staff. I'm also having a long conversation with MO and his philosophy/message this organization has been living on for the last 18+ years. Like I've said, no matter how good it is, eventually it becomes complacent and stale and I think we've reached that point and it's time to adapt/change. If not, might be time to move on if there is resistance. 

What this team should be focusing on IMO, is like you elluded too - the deadline and maximizing their assets they can get in return to do a retool of this roster and give them ammunition for the offseason on the trade front. They should be doing a 2022 Cincinatti Reds approach. Just look at the return they got for they're pitching last year. Granted, you're not going to get the (3) really good prospects like they got for Mahle (who still had control left), or an ace like Castillo, but you can still probably pull (1) of those high end guys for a Flaherty for example. You take that all day. This deadline trade market for pitching looks to be trash and we need to capitalize on it. They should be making every effort to deal the likes of Flagherty, Monty, Stratton, Hicks, Gio, Helsley. I'm listening to any offer on any position player not named Gorman, Walker, Arenado and Goldy. Those are the (4) peices that I'm continuing to build around on offense. I'm playing Dylan Carlson everyday to see how he responds and if he is in my future.   

If I could like this post multiple times, I would.

Now I just hope DeWitt has the balls to do it, and by that I mean make Mo do it.

They are always worried about the dollars spent on tickets and at the stadium, But honestly I think St Louis is smart enough that they would come out stronger if they showed (and then publically said) that it just didnt work this year, and we are looking to retool fast, and compete again in 2024. They could sell August and September by playing ALL the young guys they can (Walker, Gorman, Carlson, Winn, every Arm ready to go out there and throw)

[MOSteelers56]

I agree with what you said @kgarrett12486

The only thing I’d change is adding Winn to that list of untouchables. I’d probably try and keep Noot too, honestly. Edman, Donovan, Carlson, TON, everyone can go. 

[JonStark]

3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

They are doing the same thing with keeping Oscar Mercado on the roster over giving a guy like Moises Gomez a look...

I think if we send Mercado down, he goes to waivers so I get not wanting another team to ****** him up (although that should've been taken into account when he was brought up over Gomez in the first place).

[holt_bruce81]

Trade Helsley to the Twins for pick #34 this year. 

Keep losing. I want a top 5 pick and Konnor Griffin next year. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by holt_bruce81

[kgarrett12486]

17 hours ago, JonStark said:

I think if we send Mercado down, he goes to waivers so I get not wanting another team to ****** him up (although that should've been taken into account when he was brought up over Gomez in the first place).

I'm fine with loosing him. He was brought up to be a defensive replacement due to the OF injuries at the time. We got lucky and struck gold with his bat for about 1.5 weeks and then it disappeared. His defense has been awful, so don't see what value he brings other than baserunning. 

Edman has played a much better CF than him. 

[MOSteelers56]

1 hour ago, kgarrett12486 said:

I'm fine with loosing him. He was brought up to be a defensive replacement due to the OF injuries at the time. We got lucky and struck gold with his bat for about 1.5 weeks and then it disappeared. His defense has been awful, so don't see what value he brings other than baserunning. 

Edman has played a much better CF than him. 

Yeah, I’m with you. Mercado is an athletic AAAA player. He hit well for a minute. Now he’s just sitting on the bench. Carlson’s back, sorry Oscar. I bet he’d clear waivers if DFA’d. 

[ttitansfan4life]

Same lineup as last night smh. So why was Baker even called up? I’m not saying he’s going to save the offense but the dude has hardly played since being called up yet here we are still playing one of the worst players in baseball in DeJong.

Edited June 13, 2023 by ttitansfan4life