Commanders not picking up Young's 5th year option.

[Slappy Mc]

1 hour ago, Scott Land said:

I wasn't even defending Chase by saying Terry skipped last year. I'm simply using your sides' arguments against against you because I don't think they're good arguments. I didn't agree with Chase skipping all the voluntary stuff, I thought he needed to be there, but if people are going to say that he's not a leader because he skipped voluntary OTA's, when tons of other players skip as well, get real. 

"Your sides' argument." Firstly, I am not grouped with anyone here as my opinion is uniquely my own. Secondly, comparing a player who "deserves" a new contract sitting out OTA's is very different than a player choosing to train independently. Chase Young was in fact the only player to miss ALL of the OTAs in 2021. With that said, these two things are unrelated and not a good comparison. 

The subject that seems to at the forefront here is "leadership." Terry is a leader in every category on and off the field. Whether you choose to admit it or not, I have not heard Chase speak about "helping the team". Chase Young is all about Chase Young. Nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't endear yourself to teammates in a leadership kind of way. 

Chase Young doesn't have to be a leader. Heck he doesn't even have to be whatever he thinks he is in his head. What he needs to be for this team is a 8-12 sack guy that does his job. I'd take 100 Ryan Kerrigans over 100 Chase Youngs.

[Scott Land]

18 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

.are the 49ers making similar excuses about Bosa's play against QBs that get the ball out quick? I don't hear the litany of excuses of "he was chipped, double teamed, etc..." with them. 

I just watched all 18.5 sacks Nick Bosa had last year and he was chipped twice, and he just avoided it. That said, he's an absolute freak and Chase Young is not Nick Bosa and you won't find anywhere on here that I said he was. 

18 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

To me that is making excuses for where he's at professionally and why we should've plunked down $17M for his 5th year option. The 49ers don't have to say things like that because Bosa has actually shown up on the field.

We do agree, though, that he is nowhere near Bosa in terms of being a generational talent that he was billed to be.

To your other point, no he doesn't need to mirror Bosa's production. But I want more than just 7.5 sacks in his best season. A season that was 3 years ago. Because otherwise I'm risking tying up $17M for a player whose production really hasn't merited it. 

Clearly he has to do something compared to Bosa by your standards. He's not Nick Bosa, but if he does figure is s*** out, there's no reason he couldn't be up there in sack numbers. Will he figure it out and get to his level? No probably not anymore, but I do believe he will figure it out this year and I think not picking up the option going to end up being a mistake. Don't you think this new ownership group will want Chase Young around? As well as the new coaching staff?  

I do not disagree that after these last 2 years not picking up the option COULD be the correct move, but with all of our other DE's also being in contract years, I think it's moronic. And Chase has the highest ceiling. Montez was also a 1st rounder (I know not the 2nd overall pick and people didn't call him a generational pass rusher) but why is no one calling him out? His best season is 9 sacks and I wouldn't say he's really lived up to his potential either. I know what you're saying by saying you can't pay 17 million based off of potential, but this franchise has spent a lot more on a lot worse. 

18 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

I don't necessarily disagree with this (especially about Daron) except to say that Chase torpedoed his 2nd year before it started by skipping the voluntary workouts. And while I might've wanted Terry (since you brought him up elsewhere) to report to OTAs last offseason, I also understand the difference between the two players. One had consistently produced over multiple years, was seeking a new contract, and that was the reason why he was absent (Terry) and one had one good rookie season and was off doing his own thing and his absence was a result of that (Chase). 

I know that Chase and Terry skipping were completely different circumstances. All I was saying was saying Chase isn't a leader because of that I disagree with. You can use different examples of how you think he isn't a leader and that's fine. But players skip it all the time and very notable players at that, and they don't get the same flack. Even though I do not believe Chase has done nearly enough in the league to justify it. 

[Scott Land]

18 hours ago, Slappy Mc said:

"Your sides' argument." Firstly, I am not grouped with anyone here as my opinion is uniquely my own. Secondly, comparing a player who "deserves" a new contract sitting out OTA's is very different than a player choosing to train independently. Chase Young was in fact the only player to miss ALL of the OTAs in 2021. With that said, these two things are unrelated and not a good comparison. 

The subject that seems to at the forefront here is "leadership." Terry is a leader in every category on and off the field. Whether you choose to admit it or not, I have not heard Chase speak about "helping the team". Chase Young is all about Chase Young. Nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't endear yourself to teammates in a leadership kind of way. 

Chase Young doesn't have to be a leader. Heck he doesn't even have to be whatever he thinks he is in his head. What he needs to be for this team is a 8-12 sack guy that does his job. I'd take 100 Ryan Kerrigans over 100 Chase Youngs.

All I was stating is that you can't use him skipping VOLUNTARY workouts makes him not a leader because players do it all the time. I think after his rookie year he got in over his head and he caused some problems because he thought he was something more than he was, and he got humbled for it. 

Maybe Chase is a leader on the tv and behind the scenes there's another story. Before he was cleared to play he sure seemed like a leader on the sideline to me. Maybe others think he was being a glorified cheerleader, I don't know. I've been wrong before, and will admit when I'm wrong, time will tell on Chase. 

[MKnight82]

1 hour ago, Scott Land said:

Montez was also a 1st rounder (I know not the 2nd overall pick and people didn't call him a generational pass rusher) but why is no one calling him out? His best season is 9 sacks and I wouldn't say he's really lived up to his potential either.

Chase Young has 9 CAREER sacks.  

[Scott Land]

3 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

Chase Young has 9 CAREER sacks.  

Since it's all about stats with you, how about Chase having 6 forced fumbles and 3 fumble recoveries in 27 games. Montez has 7 forced fumbles and 0 recoveries in 59 games. Montez averages .5 sacks a game and Chase averages .3 sacks a game. They each have 1 touchdown. Montez averages 1.25 QB hits and Chase averages .63 QB hits per game. They both average 2.8 tackles per game (solo Chase is 1.9 and Montez is 1.7).  If you really think Montez has just been head and shoulders better than Chase, you're wrong. 

[MKnight82]

28 minutes ago, Scott Land said:

Since it's all about stats with you, how about Chase having 6 forced fumbles and 3 fumble recoveries in 27 games. Montez has 7 forced fumbles and 0 recoveries in 59 games. Montez averages .5 sacks a game and Chase averages .3 sacks a game. They each have 1 touchdown. Montez averages 1.25 QB hits and Chase averages .63 QB hits per game. They both average 2.8 tackles per game (solo Chase is 1.9 and Montez is 1.7).  If you really think Montez has just been head and shoulders better than Chase, you're wrong. 

I'm not comparing the two at all.  I'm just saying I think its a little silly to get so worked up over passing on a guy's 5th year option that has 9 career sacks. 

[Scott Land]

9 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

I'm not comparing the two at all.  I'm just saying I think its a little silly to get so worked up over passing on a guy's 5th year option that has 9 career sacks. 

It's more about going into this next season with 7 pass rushers in the last year of their contracts. When they could've picked up the option and then figured out the rest. I understand it's a risk, but if it backfires, gonna look really silly. 

[MikeT14]

2 hours ago, Scott Land said:

 If you really think Montez has just been head and shoulders better than Chase, you're wrong. 

Well at least a head though

[turtle28]

On 5/8/2023 at 4:23 PM, Slappy Mc said:

"Your sides' argument." Firstly, I am not grouped with anyone here as my opinion is uniquely my own. Secondly, comparing a player who "deserves" a new contract sitting out OTA's is very different than a player choosing to train independently. Chase Young was in fact the only player to miss ALL of the OTAs in 2021. With that said, these two things are unrelated and not a good comparison. 

The subject that seems to at the forefront here is "leadership." Terry is a leader in every category on and off the field. Whether you choose to admit it or not, I have not heard Chase speak about "helping the team". Chase Young is all about Chase Young. Nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't endear yourself to teammates in a leadership kind of way. 

Chase Young doesn't have to be a leader. Heck he doesn't even have to be whatever he thinks he is in his head. What he needs to be for this team is a 8-12 sack guy that does his job. I'd take 100 Ryan Kerrigans over 100 Chase Youngs.

Chase Young is a leader. He's not a leader in the way that Terry McLaurin is, but there are different types of leaders. Terry is the type of guy who leads by example on and off the field as you said, he says the right things when asked questions, he gives great and eloquent speeches and never ever seems to have mistakes. That's great, every team needs those types of guys on their team. We are lucky to have at least two of them, one on offense (Terry) and one on defense (Jon Allen).
 

Chase Young is a different type of leader. I believe it was Rivera who said this, but maybe it was a beat reporter like John Keim, but they mentioned just the energy that Chase will bring to a practice when he's healthy and participating & how he supports his teammates in an uplifting encouraging way & did even when he couldn't participate in full practice most of last year. The type of energy and rah-rah enthusiasm that a guy like Chase brings to a locker room & team can also be infectious & leadership quality. Alex Smith spoke about this in 2020.
 

There’s no doubt that Chase made mistakes in his 2nd offseason here by skipping some VOLUNTARY workouts & then made it worse by making his stupid comments at the podium about why he missed OTAs but that was nearly 2 years ago. And then it became worse bc he didn't put up much sack stats the first half of 2021 & then sadly tore his ACL and patella tendon causing him to miss not only the 2nd half of 2021 but basically all of 2022 minus a few games at the end of the year.

We have to move past that. It’s in the past and we can't change the past. Chase was immature - only 21 or 22 at the time of the 2021 offseason - and I believe has shown he learned from those mistakes. 

Currently, in this offseason, in 2023, Chase was at OTAs so far & Montez Sweat was not. Nicki Jabala was told that Sweat didn't miss the first OTAs due to a contract dispute but I’d say that's something to monitor as this off-season progresses.

As for Chase being that 8-12 sack guy, I just love it when someone doesn't like a player and conveniently makes that player's stats total he needs to get to be acceptable to the poster right above where that player's best season was so far.

I see you chose 8-12 sacks, bc as a rookie Chass had 7.5 sacks in 15 games - he missed one game with a groin jury that he labored through the first month or more of his rookie season that I'm sure most people forgot about.

If I’m being honest though, 8 sacks from Chase or Sweat is not going to cut it for me this year. They both have too much raw talent, athleticism, strength and speed for me to accept either of them getting less than 10 sacks and calling that a successful season for either of them.

They are both bigger, stronger & faster than Kerrigan & Orakpo but from what I've seen so far, Kerrigan & Orakpo we're more fierce competitors & gave better effort than Chase & Sweat. And despite Kerrigan & Orakpo not being as physically gifted they produced more statistically when healthy.

Hopefully Chase & Sweat both put together double-digit sack seasons this year bc I expect nothing less. If they don't then one of them will be gone - which will probably happen anyway - & the other one will get the franchise tag while the team tries to negotiate a long-term deal with the franchised DE we choose to keep for one year while that DE likely won't sign the long term offer bc I doubt it won’t be a contract to be the highest paid DE/3-4 OLB in the league unless either player approaches 15 sacks or gets more.

That's all TBD at the moment they can only prove it to us on the field.

[turtle28]

10 hours ago, MikeT14 said:

Well at least a head though

The only way Sweat has been above Chase so far is in health. Sadly for Chase, there's nothing that can be done about that. It sucks he got hurt but, he has this year to prove still that he deserves a 2nd contract with the team, as does Sweat & may the best man win that 2nd contract.

[turtle28]

16 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

Chase Young has 9 CAREER sacks.  

He had 2 taken away on bogus roughing the passer penalties in 2021. Chase can’t do anything about his knee injury. Sadly it happened. Games played & sacks would be better to use. It's still not good, but it doesn't look like you saying he only has 9 career sack... Yeah, in a year & a half of being healthy enough to play.

I still say not giving Chase the 5th year option is short sidedness bc if he has even just a good year this year they’re going to want to franchise him and the 5th year option is $3 or $4 million less than the franchise tag.

If Chase has even just a good year (8-9 sakcs) & shows progression they're going to want to see a 5th year out of him, what will suck then is that it's going to cost $21-22 mil to franchise him when you could’ve had him for $17.5 mil.

[Thaiphoon]

17 hours ago, turtle28 said:

He had 2 taken away on bogus roughing the passer penalties in 2021. Chase can’t do anything about his knee injury. Sadly it happened. Games played & sacks would be better to use. It's still not good, but it doesn't look like you saying he only has 9 career sack... Yeah, in a year & a half of being healthy enough to play.

So then including those 2, that's only 3.5 sacks in 9 games. Yup, exactly what I want out of the #2 pick in the draft.

Quote

 

I still say not giving Chase the 5th year option is short sidedness bc if he has even just a good year this year they’re going to want to franchise him and the 5th year option is $3 or $4 million less than the franchise tag.

If Chase has even just a good year (8-9 sakcs) & shows progression they're going to want to see a 5th year out of him, what will suck then is that it's going to cost $21-22 mil to franchise him when you could’ve had him for $17.5 mil.

 

See, you're looking at this as if he's going to have a season like his rookie season and the tag is an automatic thing. What you're not seeing is the 5th year contract, which is fully guaranteed BTW, is also a risk itself.

Walk with me here. Here are the options:

1. If he gets extended and plays like poo this year, then we've wasted $17.5M in his 5th year.
2. If he plays great then the tag is only about $4M-$5M more than what we would've risked going with option #1.

For #2, the increased risk is nominal with the rising cap. 

Would've been better to argue that we'd have him and Sweat in FA at the same time rather than what you argued above. Because in terms of risk, we're already risking $17.5M in BOTH scenarios. The difference is that in scenario #2, we would only have increased risk by a few million. But in #1, we would've wasted the entire $17.5M. See the point now?

 

[turtle28]

12 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

So then including those 2, that's only 3.5 sacks in 9 games. Yup, exactly what I want out of the #2 pick in the draft.

8 games, but who’s counting? He didn’t finish the game Vs the Bucs when he hurt his knee, in fact I think he got hurt in the 1st half.

15 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

See, you're looking at this as if he's going to have a season like his rookie season and the tag is an automatic thing. What you're not seeing is the 5th year contract, which is fully guaranteed BTW, is also a risk itself.

Walk with me here. Here are the options:

1. If he gets extended and plays like poo this year, then we've wasted $17.5M in his 5th year.
2. If he plays great then the tag is only about $4M-$5M more than what we would've risked going with option #1.

For #2, the increased risk is nominal with the rising cap. 

Would've been better to argue that we'd have him and Sweat in FA at the same time rather than what you argued above. Because in terms of risk, we're already risking $17.5M in BOTH scenarios. The difference is that in scenario #2, we would only have increased risk by a few million. But in #1, we would've wasted the entire $17.5M. See the point now?

I’d rather have Chase locked up for two more years bc I think he’s only going to get better and develop more. He just turned 24. Even if he wasn’t better than average this year - his 1st year playing after his knee injury - he could still play good to great under the 5th year option in 2024, two seasons after his knee injury, which is more likely than him having a good to great year this year.

I hate that he’s going to be a FA after this year bc I want to see him develop & for him to be given a chance to develop more than just 1 year coming off of one of the most serious knee injures you can have, but it is what it is.  Rivera once again made a and decision IMO, he’s been chalk full of them since he was hired.
 

If Chase doesn’t play well this year - hard to imagine - he didn’t even play poorly the last few games or last year or the 1st half of the 2021 season. Yeah, he wasn’t “generational” the first half of 2021 but he wasn’t bad, he just didn’t get home to get sacks on all of the pressures he had. I think a lot of that had to do with how poorly our pass D played the first half of 2021 but, I’m sure I’d never get an agreement from those who’ve already made up their mind that Chase just will never live up to his draft stock bc he wasn’t great the 1st half of 2021 & then he got hurt so there’s no possible way he can improve and live up to the hype he had before, during the draft and in his rookie year…
 

 

[Scott Land]

10 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

1. If he plays great then the tag is only about $4M-$5M more than what we would've risked going with option #1.

For #2, the increased risk is nominal with the rising cap. 

Projected tag for 2024 for DE's is actually $24.5M so it's actually $7M more. Unless they use the transition tag, which I haven't seen what number that would be. 

[Thaiphoon]

5 hours ago, Scott Land said:

Projected tag for 2024 for DE's is actually $24.5M so it's actually $7M more. Unless they use the transition tag, which I haven't seen what number that would be. 

Okay, so it's a distinction without much of a difference for me here. If he sucks/is not worth it, we're out $17.5M. If he is great, we only have a premium tacked on of $7M.

Pay an extra $7M or lose $17.5M those are your options.