NickButera Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 There seems to be an unusual amount of unease over Caleb on this forum. But from what amateur stuff I've seen, the reviews I've watched, and what elite evaluators are unanimously saying about him, he's as cant miss as cant miss can get. I've watched most of his games this year, and the guy legitimately plays QB at a high level, he does things like look off safeties routinely, he lets plays develop outside of his eyesight and turns and flicks the ball to a location he knows the WR will be at, etc I don't think I've ever seen such a highly evaluated QB get criticized here before like this. I'm not sure why. I usually don't take stances and am a middle ground grey area person. But in this rare case I'm all on board Caleb Williams train, dude is going to be very good at the NFL level. (And for the record, I'm very against divas, I hated Manziel as a prospect for instance, but I don't see that in Caleb.) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpaulthe1st Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 14 minutes ago, NickButera said: There seems to be an unusual amount of unease over Caleb on this forum. But from what amateur stuff I've seen, the reviews I've watched, and what elite evaluators are unanimously saying about him, he's as cant miss as cant miss can get. I've watched most of his games this year, and the guy legitimately plays QB at a high level, he does things like look off safeties routinely, he lets plays develop outside of his eyesight and turns and flicks the ball to a location he knows the WR will be at, etc I don't think I've ever seen such a highly evaluated QB get criticized here before like this. I'm not sure why. I usually don't take stances and am a middle ground grey area person. But in this rare case I'm all on board Caleb Williams train, dude is going to be very good at the NFL level. (And for the record, I'm very against divas, I hated Manziel as a prospect for instance, but I don't see that in Caleb.) Agreed with all of this. Classic case of over analysis on a guy who has been the consensus #1 pick for 2+ years. It happened to Trevor Lawrence as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 I don't think the Raiders will be in position to take either Williams or Maye. Ultimately, I think they will 5-6 games and pick somewhere 4-8. As of now, my preference will be Harrison or defense without knowing much about the top prospects besides Williams, Maye, and Harrison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickButera Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 I'm all for trading Adams for a first to a contender, trading renfrow for a midrounder, let's do anything we can to amass draft capital and get our franchise QB and possibly a luxury piece to go with him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackinBlack Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 Just now, NickButera said: I'm all for trading Adams for a first to a contender, trading renfrow for a midrounder, let's do anything we can to amass draft capital and get our franchise QB and possibly a luxury piece to go with him. I just only see 1 contender that desperately needs a WR... and he aint going there. Dolphins - Hill Waddle 9ers - debo aiyuk eagles - smith brown bills - diggs davis ( adams def upgrade but can they take him on?) cowboys - lamb Gallup KC - no Those to me are top 3 in each conference. I guess maybe balt or det would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidersForever Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 46 minutes ago, jpaulthe1st said: Agreed with all of this. Classic case of over analysis on a guy who has been the consensus #1 pick for 2+ years. It happened to Trevor Lawrence as well. It's one thing if Williams looks Mahomes-esque against Colorado's pretty horrible defense. It's another if he does the same thing against Notre Dame (a MUCH better defense on all levels). If he puts up Heisman numbers against ND, then I might be on board. As for now, I'm still on the Drake Maye train for now (for reasons @big_palooka has already brought up). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 Loved AOC's fearlessness and toughness but he's not the QBOTF. Who is QB3 for you guys? I really like Penix, but haven't taken a deep dive into Shedeur or Ewers yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said: Caleb reminds me a lot of Johnny Manziel on and off the field. His mechanics are better- I thought Manziel's were a mess. but he's too reliant on highlight reel plays against inferior competition amd his attitude is questionable. Perhaps "attitude" is a bit broad, so we'll tailor it down to "priorities". Kyler is similar- his mechanics were far better than Manziel's, but still a bit wonky. He thrives outside of structure, but teams (good teams, not the 2022 Raiders) learned pretty quickly how to negate Kyler's penchant for playing school yard ball. But, Murray has been at least serviceable as a starter unlike Manziel. I will give him that. But serviceable is not good for a QB1. Moreover, Kyler's priorities haven't been conducive to the NFL. He's chased the money, not the glory, and his work ethic- something that was hailed as great coming out- has been largely lacking. Caleb strikes me as the $ chaser, not the QB that wants to be great to be a great QB. I don't even really blame him as the whole NIL thing has become a farce itself. But it's a red flag for me. He's great in college, particularly when freelancing, but he makes no bones about the NIL deals and talks of returning to school depending on who holds the top pick(s). That rubs me the wrong way. It rubbed me the wrong way when Kyler expressed similar sentiment, it rubbed me the wrong way when Eli got Archie to piss and moan about the Chargers drafting him. It bugged me in the past, it will big me in the future. Why? Because I don't think Caleb (or any draft eligible player for that matter) sees the NFL as anything more than a quick money grab and fears that they won't make as much if a bad team drafts them and they struggle to land the same level of endorsements and media adulation. At that point, I question their heart, dedication, and their belief in themselves. I have absolutely zero doubt practically every top prospect shares that sentiment in silence, but for someone to outright say it....no thanks. I think Caleb comes in with a ton of hype and becomes an almost immediate prima donna headache, flashes some tantalizing potential here and there, gets 1 big payday and falls off the map or holds out for a trade to somewhere he wants to go. He wants too much- to be the star, to be paid, to be adored...those are normal. To be in total control of where he goes is a step too far for me. That's NIL/transfer portal mentality, and I honestly think the NFL is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of college players as time goes on and they realize their star at the NFL level will never shine quite as bright as at the college level. Had I continued to play in college and made it far enough to get drafted, I 100% would have wanted to be a star, get paid big bucks, and play for the Raiders specifically. I would've thrown up if the Chiefs or Broncos or Chargers or 9ers drafted me (I would've retired on the spot if the Browns did, but that's a whole different story). I would've held my breath every time the Jets or Rams pick came around. But I would have never vocalized that feeling. It's disrespectful to other draftees who fought and clawed in hopes of any team choosing them, every UDFA in waiting hoping for a phone call, and every staff/framchise that spent time and resources to scout me. That's not where leaders come from, it's how targets are placed squarely on your back. And right now, that's where I see Caleb Williams trending towards. It's not a matter of who's *** he chaps- owners, coaches, fellow players, fans- but how many he ultimately chaps. To me, it's got all the makings of a disaster for a franchise just waiting to happen. And that's why I'd go with Maye or any of the other top tier guys- they simply haven't rubbed me the wrong way to the same degree. You should write fan fiction brother; the narratives you’re able to fabricate out of thin air are incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, big_palooka said: What, outside the finger nail painting thing a year ago points to any of this "diva" talk? He seems pretty goal oriented by all accounts. Put in the work and is a great teammate. Off the field and his NIL money, he's pretty much debunked your whole narrative: https://reignoftroy.com/posts/usc-trojans-qb-caleb-williams-is-as-great-off-field-as-he-is-on-it The nail painting is one thing. The other, as I stated ad nauseum had you actually read the post, revolves around the fact that, like Kyler, he's openly chasing the money first. He's pretty well established that he'll return to school rather than declare if he doesn't like the draft order. https://theathletic.com/4839276/2023/09/06/caleb-williams-nfl-draft-comments-gq/ https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38243587/2024-draft-the-moment-decision He doesn't have to go to the NFL to make money, he can stay at USC and make plenty without the risk of flopping and fading into forgotteness as so many QBs have. And, hey, from a business perspective it's totally understandable and sensible for him. For me, as a fan, and for for a franchise, as a prospective employer, it's fair to question his passion for being a great NFL QB being more important to him than chasing money a'la Kyler Murray. Talking about returning depending on Draft order because he doesn't need the NFL to make money? 🚩 Supposedly wanting day 1 equity in the franchise that picks him? 🚩 Refusing to appear in the new NCAA game because of money even though he wasn't set to be in it? 🚩 For me, those are red flags because we've seen similar types of situations play out ugly before. You don't have to agree with the assessment, as you didn't have to agree with the assessment that we'd seen McDaniels before and can tell how it would play out. But for me, I question where his priorities are in terms of football. Plenty of guys gush about how much they love the game. Every guy on winning teams in college is gonna have guys gushing about them as teammates. That's not persuasive to me, it's fluff. Not to compare, but Aaron Hernandez was a consummate teammate, Manziel ostensibly lived and breathed football, Sam Darnold was exciting and transcendent, Kyler "loved football more than baseball" (but apparently not Call of Duty), Carson Wentz was the humble and team-oriented kid from D-2, DeShawn Watson wasn't about the money and was the ultimate team player (until it was absolutely about the money and he turned out to be slimeball supreme). For me, I prefer the more understated QBs. The flash and hype and pizazz ones just don't do it for me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 21 minutes ago, NYRaider said: You should write fan fiction brother; the narratives you’re able to fabricate out of thin air are incredible. Dude, your ability to scout QBs is literally legendarily abysmal. I really don't think you're capable of understanding it, much less when you're overplaying your hand. Go study for mid-terms. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilshark69 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 Lmao! Like I said “ the man of a thousand QB avi’s” and absolute king of trolling. How dare ANYONE have an opinion on CW that isn’t 100% sparkling....👍🤣🍻 fwiw, I’ll take ANY of the top QBs in 2024. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 2 hours ago, NickButera said: There seems to be an unusual amount of unease over Caleb on this forum. But from what amateur stuff I've seen, the reviews I've watched, and what elite evaluators are unanimously saying about him, he's as cant miss as cant miss can get. That's where the unease comes from, I think. I don't think he's a bad dude. Maybe a bit over the top at times, but not a bad dude. Where I draw the line is a mix of things. 1. I don't trust his "passion". Too many money-driven motives. Sorry, I just don't. Guys who see green haven't fared particularly well. 2. The hype has reached absurd levels. Nobody ever matches the hype they get, not even Andrew Luck or Trevor Lawrence. I think both played better competition in terms of defense, both were great without the constant deviation from structure. Hurts wasn't as hyped, but he had something I liked to see: his progress from his first to last college snap was visible. Coachability maybe? With Williams I just see some mid level competition and video game stats right now, aided a lot by the poor defenses they've faced. I've seen too many over hyped QBs flop. 3. The absolute reluctance for so many in the draft community to actually sit down and critique him. This is a big one for me. Maybe Caleb Williams is indeed the living football embodiment of Mother Teresa with the football skills of the God's themselves all rolled up into a neat little package and bequeathed to us mere mortals. Maybe Caleb Williams is the greatest thing since sliced bread and everyone genuinely adores the guy and he routinely saves kittens from trees and can digest the most complex defensive schemes while doing so. Maybe Caleb Williams pulls a Bill Gates and donates his wealth hand over fist to various charities and initiatives. Dude could be Christ, Ghandi, Buddha, and Ronald McDonald all in one. But the fact everyone seems to recoil and get the pitchforks ready at the mere sight of critiquing him turns me off. You don't just evaluate guys on face value. His teammates love him, fans love him, coaches love him, opponents stand in awe of his brilliance. Cool. What else is there? Maybe nothing, but you don't judge a book by its cover- whether you love the cover or not. And the unwillingness of the masses to do so weirds me out about the guy. I could very well be wrong on him- it wouldn't be the first or last one- but I want to see him under a microscope. And not just him, this applies to any major pick- but people are willing to sit and critique the others without much pushback. Maybe "too good to be true" is a thing for a reason. Maybe we change it to "too good to be true unless we're talking Caleb Williams as a prospect" by the time the draft rolls around. But I just can't buy in yet because of that- he's too good to be true for me right now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 23 minutes ago, Devilshark69 said: Lmao! Like I said “ the man of a thousand QB avi’s” and absolute king of trolling. How dare ANYONE have an opinion on CW that isn’t 100% sparkling....👍🤣🍻 fwiw, I’ll take ANY of the top QBs in 2024. Lol. I'd take any too. I'd be fine selecting Caleb Williams. I just don't get the lack of objectivity that seems to come with him. It's like an unwillingness to even begin to look. Athletic, handsome smile, infectious personality, donates to causes and charities, eats lives and breathes football, has fantastic play on-tape, so on so forth. Perfect choir boy with the perfect game. We just leave it there, yeah? Andrew Luck was at least acknowledged as being a bit quirky. Trevor Lawrence had some mechanics to sort out. Cam Newton had his past and questions about how his game would translate. There's always something. Nobody even cares to look with Williams, they just accept it. Idk man, it just seems way too handled and manufactured for me. I don't dislike him or his game enough to say I wouldn't take him, I just don't know that I'm 100% on board at this point. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said: Dude, your ability to scout QBs is literally legendarily abysmal. I really don't think you're capable of understanding it, much less when you're overplaying your hand. Go study for mid-terms. I've never missed on a QB evaluation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, NYRaider said: I've never missed on a QB evaluation ........ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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