Cowboys Training Camp 2023

[Dallas94Ware]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:31 AM, textaz03 said:

This game was a major let down for down roster depth. Not overly impressed by what I saw with the exception of Sam Williams and Tolbert. 
 

OLine depth is a HUGE concern! Mazi was a BIG let down. They got one more preseason game to put it all together. But right now, I’m not seeing anything that’s making me warm and fuzzy. 

I mean, did you expect anything but this?

Dallas drafts very well at the top of the draft. First rounders all around the field playing well. A few seconds too. After that? We get guys who barely even make it to the bubble by year 3, let alone inside of it to stick around. The team, as a result, is top heavy. Super studs everywhere, with a few mid round guys hitting big like Dak, or Gallup, or Armstrong. But many of the depth behind the starters would barely be third man up on most other teams.

This team is lucky to draft so well high in the draft. But it needs better results from its mid round guys, and even moreso, better results from anyone not holding a top slot.

Those teams who win it all, have injuries just as often as anyone. Difference? Their backups come in and do the job well enough to keep the team competitive.

Starting LT in Philly during a SB run goes down? No problem, Vaitai played so well he earned himself a giant payday from Detroit. In fact, Phillys backup QB has a statue outside of their stadium. Safety rolls up his knee in KC? No problem, either. Running back injuries slowing down your backfield in Tampa? no problem, let's plug in some washups and some rookies and win a super bowl.

I feel like, with us, if a player goes down, we are just screwed. There is no quality patchwork to solve it, no backup who steps in and shows he deserves to stay here, no scheme changes to mask the void and ease the burden on some 6th round blunder in over his head. Nope, just failure.

We were lucky Rush, after five years here, had his light go on last year. Or we likely would have been picking a lot higher than where we picked Mazi Smith .... Well, wait...maybe that wouldn't have been a bad thing... 😂

[matt79511]

1 hour ago, Dallas94Ware said:

I mean, did you expect anything but this?

Dallas drafts very well at the top of the draft. First rounders all around the field playing well. A few seconds too. After that? We get guys who barely even make it to the bubble by year 3, let alone inside of it to stick around. The team, as a result, is top heavy. Super studs everywhere, with a few mid round guys hitting big like Dak, or Gallup, or Armstrong. But many of the depth behind the starters would barely be third man up on most other teams.

This team is lucky to draft so well high in the draft. But it needs better results from its mid round guys, and even moreso, better results from anyone not holding a top slot.

Those teams who win it all, have injuries just as often as anyone. Difference? Their backups come in and do the job well enough to keep the team competitive.

Starting LT in Philly during a SB run goes down? No problem, Vaitai played so well he earned himself a giant payday from Detroit. In fact, Phillys backup QB has a statue outside of their stadium. Safety rolls up his knee in KC? No problem, either. Running back injuries slowing down your backfield in Tampa? no problem, let's plug in some washups and some rookies and win a super bowl.

I feel like, with us, if a player goes down, we are just screwed. There is no quality patchwork to solve it, no backup who steps in and shows he deserves to stay here, no scheme changes to mask the void and ease the burden on some 6th round blunder in over his head. Nope, just failure.

We were lucky Rush, after five years here, had his light go on last year. Or we likely would have been picking a lot higher than where we picked Mazi Smith .... Well, wait...maybe that wouldn't have been a bad thing... 😂

To the bold: between Ron Leary, Jeremy Parnell and Connor McGovern, Dallas’s scouting and player development has gotten more backup linemen paid lately than your average team does. And I believe we have a winning record or close to it in games started by a backup quarterback QB under McCarthy.

But yeah this team is clearly atrocious at drafting after the first round, and totally screwed every time a single starter gets hurt. That’s clearly the point that Tex was trying to make as he praised Sam Williams (56th overall) and Jalen Tolbert (88th). And boy did it suck to lose all 13 games Tyron Smith missed last season, might as well just forfeit when that happens again

[Dallas94Ware]

45 minutes ago, matt79511 said:

To the bold: between Ron Leary, Jeremy Parnell and Connor McGovern, Dallas’s scouting and player development has gotten more backup linemen paid lately than your average team does. And I believe we have a winning record or close to it in games started by a backup quarterback QB under McCarthy.

But yeah this team is clearly atrocious at drafting after the first round, and totally screwed every time a single starter gets hurt. That’s clearly the point that Tex was trying to make as he praised Sam Williams (56th overall) and Jalen Tolbert (88th). And boy did it suck to lose all 13 games Tyron Smith missed last season, might as well just forfeit when that happens again

Offensive line seems to be the one area we consistently find late round or UDFAs to plug in. And the only reason Tyron Smith loss didn't really kill the team? First round pick Tyler Smiths ability to play everywhere. And we had to bring in a 41 year old to help fill in as well.

After for every Sean Lee in round two. There are how many Fasanos, Escobar's, Josephs, etc. We may have something in Sam Williams if he stays out of trouble, which looks like he isn't. May be a Randy Gregory situation, where when he is out there he is nice to have. Problem is, he is a problem off the field.

Cooper Rush played a big saving role last year. But the first year under MM, when Dak broke his ankle? Definitely no winning record...but most teams would flounder without their starting QB so I don't hold that against them.

This team has never really had the depth quality for the next man up thing. Other teams, particularly SB winners, usually do. Sure, we have gotten lucky in a couple situations. Like, spending a top pick on Tyler, and Tyron goes down. But think about the start of last season - how terrible this passing offense often looked when Gallup wasn't ready, and Noah Brown had to play a big role. It worked a bit, but it exposed the teams offense after a game or two. Think of the end of the year. Pollard goes down, and we lost our ground game entirely. Hankins goes down, run defense - already shoddy - gets way shoddier.

Is it that way at every spot? No. But usually once one of our top guys does down, the next man up is usually not able to hold down the fort.

[matt79511]

26 minutes ago, Dallas94Ware said:

Offensive line seems to be the one area we consistently find late round or UDFAs to plug in. And the only reason Tyron Smith loss didn't really kill the team? First round pick Tyler Smiths ability to play everywhere. And we had to bring in a 41 year old to help fill in as well.

After for every Sean Lee in round two. There are how many Fasanos, Escobar's, Josephs, etc. We may have something in Sam Williams if he stays out of trouble, which looks like he isn't. May be a Randy Gregory situation, where when he is out there he is nice to have. Problem is, he is a problem off the field.

Cooper Rush played a big saving role last year. But the first year under MM, when Dak broke his ankle? Definitely no winning record...but most teams would flounder without their starting QB so I don't hold that against them.

This team has never really had the depth quality for the next man up thing. Other teams, particularly SB winners, usually do. Sure, we have gotten lucky in a couple situations. Like, spending a top pick on Tyler, and Tyron goes down. But think about the start of last season - how terrible this passing offense often looked when Gallup wasn't ready, and Noah Brown had to play a big role. It worked a bit, but it exposed the teams offense after a game or two. Think of the end of the year. Pollard goes down, and we lost our ground game entirely. Hankins goes down, run defense - already shoddy - gets way shoddier.

Is it that way at every spot? No. But usually once one of our top guys does down, the next man up is usually not able to hold down the fort.

It was 4-7 without Dak in 2020 (an abortion of a year anyhow with COVID and the Mike Nolan defense), 1-0 in 2021, 4-1 last year. So that’s a clean 9-8: barely a winning record, but far from so dismal you’d say the team was dead on arrival. That’s a bygone trend of the Garrett era, where this team couldn’t block without Tyron or play defense without Sean Lee. Now they can actually win games, a lot of them even, without those players (or Lee’s successor in Vander Esch).

I don’t think this roster is perfect or anything, but I think you’d be hard pressed to demonstrate in any statistically verifiable way that they’re worse than average at drafting in Rounds 2-7. Get this- if not for a stupid rule that groups Biadasz alongside $25M offensive tackles, Dallas would be set to use the franchise tag on a former 4th rounder for the FIFTH YEAR IN A ROW next year. That’s not a quandary you find yourself in if your team doesn’t have any roster depth/know how to draft 

Edited August 27, 2023 by matt79511

[Nextyearfordaboyz]

1 hour ago, matt79511 said:

I don’t think this roster is perfect or anything, but I think you’d be hard pressed to demonstrate in any statistically verifiable way that they’re worse than average at drafting in Rounds 2-7. Get this- if not for a stupid rule that groups Biadasz alongside $25M offensive tackles, Dallas would be set to use the franchise tag on a former 4th rounder for the FIFTH YEAR IN A ROW next year. That’s not a quandary you find yourself in if your team doesn’t have any roster depth/know how to draft 

I would wager that a real analysis would show we’re ~league average on day 2, and far above league average on day 3 over the past decade.

[Rtnldave]

Grier made a case for himself tonight.

[Nextyearfordaboyz]

8 hours ago, DaBoys said:

Another question would be if their 12th or 13th player fell all the way down to pick 38 why wouldn’t they make more of an effort trade up from 58? They could have had both. 

I bet they did try, and with asking prices too high, were hoping he’d fall a little further. Patience in a not dissimilar situation paid off when Diggs fell to our second round pick.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Nextyearfordaboyz

[D82]

 

[DaBoys]

32 minutes ago, D82 said:

 

Then again, Dak did put the game in perspective, knowing the Raiders weren't exactly playing a complex scheme on defense.

"Once again, it's preseason football. Those guys gave us three coverages on the other side," Dak said. "I'm not going to sit here on my high horse like I just called the Super Bowl or something. It was a game and it was fun. It was fun to do and it was fun to experience that."

[textaz03]

https://x.com/gehlkennfl/status/1695878488727724276?s=46&t=ktd6JTByZwOAf6VhdnN4wg
 

 

[Dallas94Ware]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:44 PM, matt79511 said:

It was 4-7 without Dak in 2020 (an abortion of a year anyhow with COVID and the Mike Nolan defense), 1-0 in 2021, 4-1 last year. So that’s a clean 9-8: barely a winning record, but far from so dismal you’d say the team was dead on arrival. That’s a bygone trend of the Garrett era, where this team couldn’t block without Tyron or play defense without Sean Lee. Now they can actually win games, a lot of them even, without those players (or Lee’s successor in Vander Esch).

I don’t think this roster is perfect or anything, but I think you’d be hard pressed to demonstrate in any statistically verifiable way that they’re worse than average at drafting in Rounds 2-7. Get this- if not for a stupid rule that groups Biadasz alongside $25M offensive tackles, Dallas would be set to use the franchise tag on a former 4th rounder for the FIFTH YEAR IN A ROW next year. That’s not a quandary you find yourself in if your team doesn’t have any roster depth/know how to draft 

Yeah, in agreement with the abortion year. Call it a mulligan. My only issue with that season was I was diagnosed free, clear and healthy April 28th, 2020. That 2020 season was my first season in two years that I wasn't so physically sick, and able to actually watch entire football games in one sitting for the first time since August 9th of 2018 (Dallas's first preseason game of that season, I remember the date well for what happened to me the next day...)

But all that aside!

I definitely 100% did NOT think of that franchise tag on fourth round guys point you made. I will absolutely concede that that is quite impressive. 

[Dallas94Ware]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:29 PM, D82 said:

 

Dak's acumen about the sport is why he was able to come in as a rookie fourth round selection, and have success. Sure, the offense was a run heavy dose of vanilla soft serve without even a cone to put it in...

But for all of Daks shortcomings, his football IQ is not one of them. He has an amazing grasp of the offense and identifying the defense. His problems usually seem to stem more from not making a faster decision moreso than not making the right decision.

[quiller]

As fans we are always going to be highly aware and critical of draft pics that “fail”.   
when I step back and look at things I feel real good.  If you have 2-3 plus high level contributors from your draft class then I call it a “win”.  
2019- 2 probowlers

2020 - 2 probowlers 1 starter 1 bench

2021 - 1 mvp level player 4 regulars ( 1 traded for a bench guy)

2022 - 1 probowler 2 starters 3 regulars 2 bench 

2023 - wait and see so far with injury not to level of past years so far 6 on the roster with the best one of the bunch injured 

that’s almost half of a very HQ roster acquired through draft over last 5 years

 

 

 

[quiller]

I came on though to discuss how people feel about the team and what its main weakness is.   Frankly my main worry is that right now we have a roster of only 8 OL with real low quality in the back ups except maybe Richards.   This is made worse IMO because one of regulars is coming off a major injury and is a real unknown and a second has barely managed to make it over 9 games a season in years 

the rest IMO is extremely elite. Easily a top 4-5 WR core. A top 1-3 CB safety and group.   A MVP level LB.  And a better average DL.   Top 10 ish QB and RB

Edited August 31, 2023 by quiller

[canadaluvsdallas]

52 minutes ago, quiller said:

I came on though to discuss how people feel about the team and what its main weakness is.   Frankly my main worry is that right now we have a roster of only 8 OL with real low quality in the back ups except maybe Richards.   This is made worse IMO because one of regulars is coming off a major injury and is a real unknown and a second has barely managed to make it over 9 games a season in years 

the rest IMO is extremely elite. Easily a top 4-5 WR core. A top 1-3 CB safety and group.   A MVP level LB.  And a better average DL.   Top 10 ish QB and RB

What exactly makes our depth players on the OL "low quality"?

We have some younger player that we are looking to develop but they all seem to have position flexibility. 

Injuries can derail the strength of any position group. Much of these younger player on the OL are medium sized draft capital. We hope they never have to play, but thats why they are there?

Asim Richards and T.J. Bass played great as rookies this pre-season. Waletszko was average but OT is I believe the hardest OL position to learn & develop. 

I'm very happy with our O-line group. Good mix of vets & young talent.

Edited August 31, 2023 by canadaluvsdallas