Top 10 DL/Edge Units in the NFL

[Soko]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Is that not the expectation?  You think they only get 40-45 sacks this year people will not freak out and be super disappointed and or potentially someone would get fired?  

I don’t know, and I don’t care. 

I’m telling you simply; Mknight did not make that argument, yet you presented it like he did. Whether they hit 70 this year or not, has no bearing whatsoever on them severely outproducing Buffalo last year. 

Arguing for or against Philly hitting 70 this year is you arguing a strawman.

[Forge]

4 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

True but didn't he miss a lot of time two years in a row, 2016 and 2017, so it is not out of the question.  And to me to just blankly say they are the 49ers they are top 3 in the league on the DL every year is a bit odd which some seem to be doing.  

 

I mean, it's not out of the question that anyone gets hurt. One of those injuries was a broken hand, which is more freakish in nature than anything and not typically an indicator of future issues. You said it seemed Armstead always got hurt, which is just a wrong. I was just correcting that. 

Now again, he's 30 years old and I don't typically expect players to get healthier as they head into their 30s. And more troubling, the injury that cost him time last year was plantar fasciitis which is very concerning in terms of future recurrence, so I wouldn't be surprised if health becomes an issue moving forward. I start getting very nervous about guys when they start having tissue injuries at this age. 

42 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I said it before but that 2019 DL group was the insane group with Bosa, Buckner, Armstead, Ford, DJ Jones, Blair, S. Thomas, K. Street and A. Zettel.  This current DL group is nothing compared to that.  They need Ferrell to be a hell of a lot better than he ever was on the Raiders or need Jackson to really step up or guys like Davidson or McGill to take steps to become productive backups.  Losing Omenihu, Ebukam and Rideway is not small thing and not sure they have replaced them with awesome depth in terms of young prospects.  

 

Maybe Speaks could be a sleeper for them, but he has a long ways to go though.  Or maybe a guy like Austin Bryant will surprise some, or best case Robert Beal who could be pretty solid but I think would have been a better fit in a 3/4.  

I don't much care much about where you put the niners, but I will say that I do think that you're overvaluing depth while not giving enough consideration to what elite players do. I also think you're overstating some of these players (back in 2019 and current). Replacement level depth pieces are typically able to be replaced, so a guy like Ridgeway really doesn't matter. 

You know why that 2019 line was good? Because of Bosa / Buckner / Armstead. They played 75-80% of the snaps. Solomon Thomas? He's not very good. Very much just a replacement level dude. Throw a rock at a d-lineman on the street, he's probably as capable as Thomas. Anthony Zettel? Played one game in 2019. Played one more in 2020 and hasn't played since.  What are we doing here with that? Kentavious street legitimately played less than 40 defensive snaps in 2019 and didn't become a useable player until 2021. Just because he eventually became a good enough rotational player 2 yeas later does not mean that's where he was in 2019. those are two different players. He played less in 2019 than Jeremiah Valoaga and Jullian Taylor. He was hurt for all but like a month of the season and didn't even start the season until December. I feel like you're just reading some of the names and throwing them out there without the the context of what was actually going on. Most of those guys you are naming were pretty much replacement level guys that the niners were able to replace without major issue. 

I think that Omenihu and Ebukam could be losses, but I'm not really nervous about it yet.  I think you're right that it could be a concern and maybe it shouldn't be taken for granted that the niners will not miss a beat. But I also think it's weird to just act the niners haven't consistently rehabbed players to make them usable pieces for several years now.  Between Kocurek and playing across from Bosa, its not an unreasonable belief that they will continue to maximize these guys that they pulled off the scrap heap. Its a really good spot for these players to be in and maximize production.  For as maligned as Clelin Ferrell was with the Raiders? Better pressure rate than both Omehihu and Arden Key before they joined the niners.

Personally, I do think he'll come in and pretty competently replace one of those two guys. I have no idea if Taco Charlton / Drake Jackson can replace the other. that's a concern for me (I'm not a huge supporter of Jackson the pass rusher, but I think he could be a decent all around edge player).  But it's hard to argue that the niners haven't been a pretty well oiled machine in this regard. Guys like Thomas and Blair were pretty easily replaced the following year with Hyder and Dion Jordan and Jordan Willis. Then Hyder and Jordan were bounced for Ebukam and Arden Key (omenihu acquired in season). Key then left and he was replaced full time with Omenihu (jackson played earlier in the season, but was benched for rmost of the back half). Ebukam / Omenihu moved out and the niners have 4 guys in Ferrell, Jackson, Taco and Bryant they will try and replace them with. I wouldn't doubt that they manage to do it based on history, but sure, it's a question still.

I would think that the bigger issue with projecting the niners is what kind of impact going from Ryans to Wilks will be rather than the actual personnel, tbh. 

The belief that ridgeway is a big loss is weird. He's a replacement level run stuffer. They picked him up off the scrap heap for basically vet minimum. He missed the last 8 games of the season (when including the playoffs) and the 49ers gave up 3.55 yards per carry, which would have been good for 2nd in the league. By weighted DVOA (which emphasizes the most recent games, which he was hurt for), they were second in the league by dvoa. How much of an impact did he really have?  They had one of the worst pass rushes in the league last year on the interior, and one of the worst pass rushes in the league when Bosa was not on the field (bottom three in the league). Yet they were still one of the best in the league.  So again, the elite guys are what really is going to drive a defensive front. Not that #6 or #7 guy that you can't trust yet. 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Soko said:

I don’t know, and I don’t care. 

I’m telling you simply; Mknight did not make that argument, yet you presented it like he did. Whether they hit 70 this year or not, has no bearing whatsoever on them severely outproducing Buffalo last year. 

Arguing for or against Philly hitting 70 this year is you arguing a strawman.

Minnesota Vikings 2021 had 51 sacks and that was 2nd in the NFL, 2022 they had 38 which 22nd or so in the NFL and they added improvements to the group that year with ZaDarius Smith a big free agent pickup, Harrison Phillips and got improved play from Patrick Jones and more importantly had a healthy Danielle Hunter who played the entire season 17 games in 2022 unlike 2021 where he played only 7 games.  Explain that.  So things happen that are not expected and coaches matter, coordinator changes matter and motivation matters as well along with individual player development or maintaining productive.  

 

 

And I do care about extenuating circumstances in a season in regards to prospect development, player performance and future production.  Is that a 'strawman' yeah it is, how else would one find potential issues that could come up in the future?  

 

Yes there is projection here on my part and assumed or predicted improvement/development that might happen or it might not.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Forge said:

I mean, it's not out of the question that anyone gets hurt. One of those injuries was a broken hand, which is more freakish in nature than anything and not typically an indicator of future issues. You said it seemed Armstead always got hurt, which is just a wrong. I was just correcting that. 

Now again, he's 30 years old and I don't typically expect players to get healthier as they head into their 30s. And more troubling, the injury that cost him time last year was plantar fasciitis which is very concerning in terms of future recurrence, so I wouldn't be surprised if health becomes an issue moving forward. I start getting very nervous about guys when they start having tissue injuries at this age. 

I don't much care much about where you put the niners, but I will say that I do think that you're overvaluing depth while not giving enough consideration to what elite players do. I also think you're overstating some of these players (back in 2019 and current). Replacement level depth pieces are typically able to be replaced, so a guy like Ridgeway really doesn't matter. 

You know why that 2019 line was good? Because of Bosa / Buckner / Armstead. They played 75-80% of the snaps. Solomon Thomas? He's not very good. Very much just a replacement level dude. Throw a rock at a d-lineman on the street, he's probably as capable as Thomas. Anthony Zettel? Played one game in 2019. Played one more in 2020 and hasn't played since.  What are we doing here with that? Kentavious street legitimately played less than 40 defensive snaps in 2019 and didn't become a useable player until 2021. Just because he eventually became a good enough rotational player 2 yeas later does not mean that's where he was in 2019. those are two different players. He played less in 2019 than Jeremiah Valoaga and Jullian Taylor. He was hurt for all but like a month of the season and didn't even start the season until December. I feel like you're just reading some of the names and throwing them out there without the the context of what was actually going on. Most of those guys you are naming were pretty much replacement level guys that the niners were able to replace without major issue. 

I think that Omenihu and Ebukam could be losses, but I'm not really nervous about it yet.  I think you're right that it could be a concern and maybe it shouldn't be taken for granted that the niners will not miss a beat. But I also think it's weird to just act the niners haven't consistently rehabbed players to make them usable pieces for several years now.  Between Kocurek and playing across from Bosa, its not an unreasonable belief that they will continue to maximize these guys that they pulled off the scrap heap. Its a really good spot for these players to be in and maximize production.  For as maligned as Clelin Ferrell was with the Raiders? Better pressure rate than both Omehihu and Arden Key before they joined the niners.

Personally, I do think he'll come in and pretty competently replace one of those two guys. I have no idea if Taco Charlton / Drake Jackson can replace the other. that's a concern for me (I'm not a huge supporter of Jackson the pass rusher, but I think he could be a decent all around edge player).  But it's hard to argue that the niners haven't been a pretty well oiled machine in this regard. Guys like Thomas and Blair were pretty easily replaced the following year with Hyder and Dion Jordan and Jordan Willis. Then Hyder and Jordan were bounced for Ebukam and Arden Key (omenihu acquired in season). Key then left and he was replaced full time with Omenihu (jackson played earlier in the season, but was benched for rmost of the back half). Ebukam / Omenihu moved out and the niners have 4 guys in Ferrell, Jackson, Taco and Bryant they will try and replace them with. I wouldn't doubt that they manage to do it based on history, but sure, it's a question still.

I would think that the bigger issue with projecting the niners is what kind of impact going from Ryans to Wilks will be rather than the actual personnel, tbh. 

The belief that ridgeway is a big loss is weird. He's a replacement level run stuffer. They picked him up off the scrap heap for basically vet minimum. He missed the last 8 games of the season (when including the playoffs) and the 49ers gave up 3.55 yards per carry, which would have been good for 2nd in the league. By weighted DVOA (which emphasizes the most recent games, which he was hurt for), they were second in the league by dvoa. How much of an impact did he really have?  They had one of the worst pass rushes in the league last year on the interior, and one of the worst pass rushes in the league when Bosa was not on the field (bottom three in the league). Yet they were still one of the best in the league.  So again, the elite guys are what really is going to drive a defensive front. Not that #6 or #7 guy that you can't trust yet. 

Dee Ford was really the difference with that group, that and a solid rock in the middle with Buckner not to mention a rookie in Bosa.  Either way it is still about one needs a solid front across the line and that open spot opposite Bosa will be a problem until someone makes over that spot.  Now maybe with Hargrave coming it that will not matter and they will finally get some pressure up the middle something they have not had since arguably Buckner left. 

And sure who cares about backups but a lot of teams depend greatly on lower level players to develop and produce.  No way the 49ers do not greatly depend on that big time with the likes of Hufanga, Greenlaw even Warner.  None were high draft picks and all have become great players in the league, where some would think his rookie year, oh Hufanga who cares that guy does not do anything, then look what happened the year after.  And sure some guys produce right away as later round picks but depth matters because there is no other way to find those guys than just collecting the best talent you can at each position and see how everything plays out.  

 

I agree the loss of Ryans at DC could be huge and potentially that could matter a ton.  Not sure Wilks is on that same level in terms of intensity or ability to relate to players and communicate as well as Ryans.  

 

And sure pass rush win rates increase when a player is surrounded by better players than they are who get most of the attention.  Not to mention the motivation of playing for a solid coach and or organization you are motivated to perform with.  

[Soko]

Edit

Edited August 18, 2023 by Soko

[Soko]

9 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Minnesota Vikings 2021 had 51 sacks and that was 2nd in the NFL, 2022 they had 38 which 22nd or so in the NFL and they added improvements to the group that year with ZaDarius Smith a big free agent pickup, Harrison Phillips and got improved play from Patrick Jones and more importantly had a healthy Danielle Hunter who played the entire season 17 games in 2022 unlike 2021 where he played only 7 games.  Explain that.  So things happen that are not expected and coaches matter, coordinator changes matter and motivation matters as well along with individual player development or maintaining productive.  

And I do care about extenuating circumstances in a season in regards to prospect development, player performance and future production.  Is that a 'strawman' yeah it is, how else would one find potential issues that could come up in the future?  

Yes there is projection here on my part and assumed or predicted improvement/development that might happen or it might not.

So yeah, you’re not even reading the posts at this point. But I’m going to try one final time here (the glutton for unreasonableness that I am):

Mknight said the Eagles clearly had a more productive pass rush last year (70 vs 40). Your response was this:

17 hours ago, Ozzy said:

So the Eagles will just break a record again that was standing for over 30 years almost and do it instantly the next year?  Maybe but I seriously doubt it

Nobody said the Eagles will repeat. Nobody said they’ll break 70. Nobody said they’ll break the record. Nobody said that because they did 70 last year, that they’ll hit 60-65-70 this year. Nobody said any of that. 

Pushing back and saying that last year has little to no relevancy on this year is fine (that’s not entirely true, but it’s fine), but you create arguments that people aren’t making. A lot.

[MKnight82]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-defensive-line-rankings-2023 

1. Eagles

2. 49ers

3. Washington

4. Dolphins

5. Steelers

6. Browns

7. Bills

[scar988]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

It's not.  I loved Ebiketie coming out of college, but unless he makes a jump to being like a top 10 Edge, and the Falcons also get jumps from a bunch of others, they aren't in the conversation.

If they get average years from everyone and Ebiketie and Jarrett take a jump to 8+ sacks and Malone hits 6-ish sacks, it looks something like this:

5Tech DE: Calais Campbell 4.0 sacks, Zach Harrison 1.0 sack

3Tech DT: Grady Jarrett 8.0 sacks, Ta'Quon Graham 1.0 sack

1Tech DT: David Onyemata 3.5 sacks, Albert Huggins 0.5 sacks

Weakside Edge: Arnold Ebiketie 8.0 sacks, Lorenzo Carter 3.0 sacks

Strongside Edge: DeAngelo Malone 6.0 sacks, Bud Dupree 4.0 sacks

That's 39 sacks with most guys just being around their career averages, and with 3 guys making a jump. I don't think everyone is going to hit all of these numbers. But this is the reasonable ceiling for this unit with Malone and Ebiketie and Jarrett all taking jumps because of better talent around them and a better defensive line coach in Nielsen taking the reins here. Add in sacks from Elliss and Andersen and some nickel blitzes and 45 sacks for this unit isn't out of the question. I think it'll be better than people are giving credit. I also think it'll be hell to run against. 

FWIW, Baldy saw some great things from Ebiketie in the last preseason game. 

 

[Daniel]

Yes, if multiple players take big leaps, and if none of those guys decline or have bad years, the Falcons are in the conversation.

Want odds on how likely I think that is?

[scar988]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

Yes, if multiple players take big leaps, and if none of those guys decline or have bad years, the Falcons are in the conversation.

Want odds on how likely I think that is?

I mean, Onyemata is 30. So is Dupree. Asking them to put up average years isn't asking too much. The big jumps are the things to really worry about, but I don't think I'm too worried about Onyemata or Dupree or Campbell combining for the 11.5 that they've been collectively averaging more than the last 3 years. 

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, scar988 said:

I mean, Onyemata is 30. So is Dupree. Asking them to put up average years isn't asking too much. 

Asking two guys over 30 not to decline is asking a good bit right off, man.

[scar988]

Just now, Daniel said:

Asking two guys over 30 not to decline is asking a good bit right off, man.

Onyemata had 5 sacks last year.

Bud Dupree had 4 last year in the same kind of role projected in 11 games.

Calais Campbell had 5.5 last year. 

I'm already predicting a bit of a decline for all 3 in a way. But I'm also projecting smaller snap counts since Nielsen likes to rotate his lines a lot. 

[Daniel]

Bud Dupree had four sacks as a ******* starter when he wasn't injured.  He only had three the year before that.  Getting better than that out of him, a year older, in a rotational role is pie in the sky.

Calais Campbell is 36.

And Grady Jarrett is a great and underrated player, for sure.  But he's never had an 8 sack season, and I don't think he's starting in his ninth year.

Literally no one but you thinks the Falcons are realistically in this.

[scar988]

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Bud Dupree had four sacks as a ******* starter when he wasn't injured.  He only had three the year before that.  Getting better than that out of him, a year older, in a rotational role is pie in the sky.

Calais Campbell is 36.

And Grady Jarrett is a great and underrated player, for sure.  But he's never had an 8 sack season, and I don't think he's starting in his ninth year.

Literally no one but you thinks the Falcons are realistically in this.

Grady Jarrett has had basically a bunch of scrubs next to him his entire career. He actually has competent defenders next to him. Ta'Quon Graham developing has been helpful too. I think he breaks out this year to an 8.0+ year. 

[Ozzy]

Might have to add the Texans DL just on Will Anderson Jr alone, damn he looks good but no big surprise.  Probably could have more success in the NFL than he did on Bama last year with all the attention he got.  He will get single blocked in the NFL far more often.  Will be interesting what Greenard and Hughes do who are both more of a 3/4 type OLB especially Greenard.  Winovich provides potential edge depth as well but he was not great last year.  Rankins will help getting rush up the middle and Khalil Davis has looked good and is moved up the depth chart for sure.  

 

They need some guys to develop around Will but Will sure does look like a dude and he will make an instant impact.  

 

Looks like they could pickup some depth off the Eagles roster when they cut some of their DL potentially.  

[Ozzy]

23 hours ago, Daniel said:

Bud Dupree had four sacks as a ******* starter when he wasn't injured.  He only had three the year before that.  Getting better than that out of him, a year older, in a rotational role is pie in the sky.

Calais Campbell is 36.

And Grady Jarrett is a great and underrated player, for sure.  But he's never had an 8 sack season, and I don't think he's starting in his ninth year.

Literally no one but you thinks the Falcons are realistically in this.

They could be up and coming but of course their younger guys have to take a big step, mostly Malone and Ebiketie.  And sure Bud Dupree at times is a bit overrated but he is very versatile and is a super experienced 3/4 OLB and will do well if he can stay healthy.  No reason to think the addition of him is a negative because he is more athletic and nimble than the likes of Lorenzo Carter.  They also go Kemoko Turay who at times flashes as a pass rusher and provides another potential 3/4 edge guy to rotate.  

 

Sure Calais is old but experienced and a great mentor.  That DL is massively improved potentially and Zach Harrison could be a monster 3/4 DE if he does well or could be a stout 3/4 OLB.  

 

Sure they are not top 10 in my book but worth a mention I suppose.  

 

I would say they have more depth at DL and OLB than the Titans do.  More edge talent and DL talent arguably.  And again the Titans need Okuayinonu to be an absolute stud because honestly they have only two quality backups being Weaver and Jones potentially.  Falcons have a lot of unproven guys but a lot of options for guys to develop and show what they can do.  

 

 

 

 

DeAngelo Malone
Lorenzo Carter
Zach Harrison
Ta'Quon Graham
Justin Ellis
Adetokunbo Ogundeji
Joe Gaziano
Kemoko Turay
Carlos Davis

 

 

Rashad Weaver
Naquan Jones
Sam Okuayinonu
Kyle Peko
Jayden Peevy
Jaleel Johnson