2024 Edge Talk

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, MagicMT said:

Yup you're totally right. For me Verse is EDGE1 and then everyone else is debatable. 
I haven't watched enough of Elliss to really comment on and I like D. Robinson but so far I'd have Chop before all those others, but it's early in the process. 
I'll have to watch more of Dallas Turner because from what I've seen he's not in the same tier as Verse/Chop/Latu.  

Dallas Turner is easily ahead of Chop Robinson in my book, Turner was still solid this year despite not having a great edge opposite him.  I did expect more out of him but I think he will test well and really has had a very fine three years in college.  Latu is just a monster and gives great effort and only issue is his health, he was far more impactful on the field than Chop Robinson was.  

[MagicMT]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Dallas Turner is easily ahead of Chop Robinson in my book, Turner was still solid this year despite not having a great edge opposite him.  I did expect more out of him but I think he will test well and really has had a very fine three years in college.  Latu is just a monster and gives great effort and only issue is his health, he was far more impactful on the field than Chop Robinson was.  

Well I'll go watch some more tape then, feels like I'm overrating Chop (based on the feedback) and might be underrating Dallas Turner.

[BetterCallSaul]

10 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Not sure anyone anywhere had Hall over Garrett at any point in time, if anything Hall got a lot of attention because people were watching Garrett and based on how bad he was as a pro that attention was not merited at all. Hall was only productive on the other edge because of all the attention teams paid to Garrett, Hall basically did nothing in the NFL and considering his size and athletic ability that was a disappointment.   
 

That was my point. Sometimes dudes thrive playing opposite the star. Zero doubles were going to Isaac when Chop was the superfreak opposite. Hall’s pure numbers were better than Garrett’s in a lot of games. That’s not bc he’s better—it’s because he saw way less coming at him in the way of blockers & saw way more coming at him in the way of ballcarriers/QB’s. Myles is 10x better/freakier than Chop, but there’s a reason teams are salivating over his tools whereas Isaac is a middling prospect. 

10 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Also not sure that means Isaac is that good, it might mean Chop Robinson is not some amazing player if both are similar on tape and at times yes that was the case.  No one is calling Isaac a 1st rounder but sure at times Chop and that burst does put him in that category it is just odd he was not more production with that get off.

Production is not always a guarantee with pass rushers. It’s easy to scheme them out of games if your OC is smart. I think sack production is a flukey stat a lot of times. 

10 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Calais Campbell is a 6-7 giant that is 300 pounds as a DE and can play DE in a 3/4 or a 4/3 when he was younger, potentially a Hall of Famer.   Not sure Braelon Trice is anything like that and for one he is not massive in terms of height at all so the comparison ends there to me.  Trice will be a 4/3 DE or a 3/4 OLB, doubt he ever is a 3/4 DE, he is what 6-3 probably and Campbell is 6-8 or 6-7.  

 

Campbell coming out of Miami was 280. Played very similar to Trice in how he wins. Not bendy, but had heavy hands and was incredibly smart with his pass rush plan. Trice is definitely a taller DE. Idk what his exact measurements are, but I’ve seen him listed at 6’5 275. Campbell was not Campbell when he was drafted. He was underwhelming at Miami, but a legendary work ethic in the pros made him a superstud. I see the same kind of thing with Trice, although he is coming into the league already more productive (which, again, I think can be flukey a lot of the time).

[BetterCallSaul]

10 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

Dallas is no doubt my #1 edge.  Verse is probably #2 for me as neck injuries(Latu) scare me.

I can see why. Turner brings the freak element as far as edge burning and threatening the corner. But Verse’s technique and frame are *significantly* better right now. Verse is plug & play. Turner is draft and develop.

Not saying you’re wrong, because guys with upside often surpass the technicians (thus my argument Chop>Isaac)…but Verse has the upside and the technique. Not sure what Verse is lacking, besides insane athleticism. He’s a very good athlete who has no real weaknesses technically speaking.

I will say that Turner plays hard. He’s not like a Vic Beasley, who tries to win with burst and then turns into a pumpkin if it fails. Even if Turner can’t develop more as an edge, I think the dude could play linebacker. He seems to be very coachable and he wants to be great, which is obviously very important. 

[Ragnarok]

1 hour ago, BetterCallSaul said:

I can see why. Turner brings the freak element as far as edge burning and threatening the corner. But Verse’s technique and frame are *significantly* better right now. Verse is plug & play. Turner is draft and develop.

Not saying you’re wrong, because guys with upside often surpass the technicians (thus my argument Chop>Isaac)…but Verse has the upside and the technique. Not sure what Verse is lacking, besides insane athleticism. He’s a very good athlete who has no real weaknesses technically speaking.

I will say that Turner plays hard. He’s not like a Vic Beasley, who tries to win with burst and then turns into a pumpkin if it fails. Even if Turner can’t develop more as an edge, I think the dude could play linebacker. He seems to be very coachable and he wants to be great, which is obviously very important. 

I agree on frame for sure.  But Dallas is much younger and has the frame to fill out and add some strength.  While Verse is a bit more technical, Dallas certainly isn't a bad technician.  

Dallas turned 21 last week and Verse turns 24 during his rookie year and age.

I think they are very close in terms of Day 1 impact and Verse is much closer to a finished product than Dallas.

I do think Verse will have a very nice career for all the reasons you said, my reasoning is partially due to projection.

[Scoundrel]

17 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

I agree on frame for sure.  But Dallas is much younger and has the frame to fill out and add some strength.  While Verse is a bit more technical, Dallas certainly isn't a bad technician.  

Dallas turned 21 last week and Verse turns 24 during his rookie year and age.

I think they are very close in terms of Day 1 impact and Verse is much closer to a finished product than Dallas.

I do think Verse will have a very nice career for all the reasons you said, my reasoning is partially due to projection.

Agreed. Turner is easily edge 1 for me. He plays with an intensity and is still developing with great athleticism and explosiveness. In my observations he is no slouch against the run either. He can add more strength to a frame that appears on film to have really good length. 

[Daniel]

I'm not super high on Turner.  And it's strange, because the three games I scouted him on were Texas, Tennessee, and Georgia, and I came away unimpressed.  He looked like just a traits guy.  And looking at the stats, he got two TFLs and a sack against Tennessee and one each against Georgia, but I just remember being underwhelmed.  Maybe they were coverage sacks or something.  I also see zero pressures in those last two games, so maybe they just aren't his best tape.

Looks like I need to watch Ole Miss to see him at his best.

[Scoundrel]

21 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I'm not super high on Turner.  And it's strange, because the three games I scouted him on were Texas, Tennessee, and Georgia, and I came away unimpressed.  He looked like just a traits guy.  And looking at the stats, he got two TFLs and a sack against Tennessee and one each against Georgia, but I just remember being underwhelmed.  Maybe they were coverage sacks or something.  I also see zero pressures in those last two games, so maybe they just aren't his best tape.

Looks like I need to watch Ole Miss to see him at his best.

Or maybe you just didn’t evaluate him well!!!

[Daniel]

49 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

Or maybe you just didn’t evaluate him well!!!

Not possible.

In all seriousness though, looking at Bama's schedule, those are almost certainly the three best OLs Bama faced all season (along with maybe Michigan, which I watched, but wasn't watching Turner for), and if I'm honest, watching Turner only against the best blockers he faced all season is probably not the fairest evaluation.  I do remember at least seeing all the traits from him though.

Verse is still my number 1, because he has everything.  Isaac is second, because I think he has two years of quality tape.  His tape this year against Michigan and Ohio St was particularly impressive to me, and moreso than anything I saw Robinson do.  I'm not sure what to do with Latu.  He's so fast, and so explosive, but I think he doesn't have a lot of power to his game.  I watched Jordan Morgan back to back against UCLA and Washington, and Trice did way, way better against Morgan than Latu did.  I think Trice is in the second round range, and considering injuries, I have Latu beneath him.  Turner I have next, but maybe I'm not giving due credit.

I will also say, the dropoff from those guys is huge.  The next ones I have are Johnny Walker and Kaimon Rucker, and they're maybe third rounders.

I'll watch Turner against Ole Miss and Chop against Iowa and reevaluate.  Looks like those are some splash games against at least decent OLs.

[Scoundrel]

12 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Not possible.

In all seriousness though, looking at Bama's schedule, those are almost certainly the three best OLs Bama faced all season (along with maybe Michigan, which I watched, but wasn't watching Turner for), and if I'm honest, watching Turner only against the best blockers he faced all season is probably not the fairest evaluation.  I do remember at least seeing all the traits from him though.

Verse is still my number 1, because he has everything.  Isaac is second, because I think he has two years of quality tape.  His tape this year against Michigan and Ohio St was particularly impressive to me, and moreso than anything I saw Robinson do.  I'm not sure what to do with Latu.  He's so fast, and so explosive, but I think he doesn't have a lot of power to his game.  I watched Jordan Morgan back to back against UCLA and Washington, and Trice did way, way better against Morgan than Latu did.  I think Trice is in the second round range, and considering injuries, I have Latu beneath him.  Turner I have next, but maybe I'm not giving due credit.

I will also say, the dropoff from those guys is huge.  The next ones I have are Johnny Walker and Kaimon Rucker, and they're maybe third rounders.

I'll watch Turner against Ole Miss and Chop against Iowa and reevaluate.  Looks like those are some splash games against at least decent OLs.

Did Rucker return to school?

[Daniel]

12 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

Did Rucker return to school?

It appears so.  Depth continues to suffer.

So, watched Ole Miss, and I don't think my opinion of Turner has changed that much.  He's got a couple of moves he relies on most of the time: he usually swats at the hands of the OL on him, and once he can get them off, he charges through the shoulder.  He has fantastic change of direction ability, and more power to his bull rush than I gave him credit for.  And he's good at disengaging from blocks.  From watching that, I still think he's a guy that has all the traits, but hasn't put them together yet.  He doesn't jump off the tape like you want a top level Edge to.

Braswell needs to get added to my Edge rankings though.  Rewatching that game for notes on him.

[MSURacerDT55]

55 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Braswell needs to get added to my Edge rankings though.  Rewatching that game for notes on him.

Don't understand why he doesn't get more hype, I'll take him over a lot of dudes who are receiving more hype or considered risers 

His game reminds me a lot of Terell Suggs 

Edited February 8 by MSURacerDT55

[Daniel]

50 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Don't understand why he doesn't get more hype, I'll take him over a lot of dudes who are receiving more hype or considered risers 

His game reminds me a lot of Terell Suggs 

So, I think here's Braswell's deal.  He has some bend, and he can get skinny to get into gaps rushing inside.  But, 99% of the time, he runs straight at the nearest blocker and either tries to contain, or run them back in a pure bull rush.  He's got really good speed to power, but his tackling leaves a little to be desired too.  He plays more like an old school DE to me.  He has some moves, I just don't know why he doesn't use them more.

Good player, plenty to work with, but not the most desired set of skills.  He'd be much more valuable with what he does if he was an elite tackler, but in the Ole Miss game, I counted three or four missed tackles due solely to him.  If you're going to be an almost pure bull rusher and edge contain guy, I want to be sure you'll make the tackle if I'm investing a Day 1 or early Day 2 pick in you.

But that's also just one game, so grain of salt.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

I'll watch Turner against Ole Miss and Chop against Iowa and reevaluate.  Looks like those are some splash games against at least decent OLs.

So, I watched Chop again, and yeah, no change.  Dude is height/weight/speed/power with a little bend.  All he does is barrel down in front of him, and if he wins, it's with superior athleticism.  That's all well and good, but I see almost no moves, and he doesn't even show quickness or change of direction, like Turner.  It's just straight line speed.  A good DL could maybe develop him into an outstanding player, but he needs a lot of seasoning.  He's plain *** chicken breast right now.

And again, I come away from this game thinking Isaac is better.  You see Isaac win with speed and power, not as often as Chop, sure, but you also see Isaac move around to find gaps, have some level of countermeasures against OLs, and even drop into coverage very effectively.  I think 2:55 is a good illustration of it.  Chop runs through the line before the guard can get hands on him and gets to the QB for what would be a sack if the QB didn't throw just barely in time.  Isaac on the other hand, takes on a double block from the tackle and TE, extends the tackle out, then sheds the block to get behind the OT with a clear path to the QB.  Robinson had already blown the play up, but that's a win by Isaac.

Again at 3:25, Robinson just powers the C into the backfield, while Isaac gets on the outside of the RT and shows bend getting to the QB, with both closing in at the same time.

4:00, Chop speed rushes around the LT (shows a little bend) and strips the ball.  Isaac is locked up on the RT, but is in control, which he shows by immediately shedding the block and recovering said fumble.

Short game, but illustrative.  Chop is all potential, while Isaac is much more polished.  Isaac is not the elite athlete that Chop is, but he's not just a finesse guy either.  And I'll take a guy who plays the position well with sufficient athleticism over a combine star you have to develop from a raw state any day.

[Ozzy]

Gabriel Murphy UCLA RS SR 
Richard Jibunor Troy RS SR
Mohamed Toure Rutgers RS SR
Joe Evans Iowa RS SR
JJ Weaver Kentucky RS SR
Grayson Murphy UCLA RS SR
Taylor Upshaw Arizona RS SR
Jaylen Harrell Michigan SR  
Ron Stone Jr Washington State RS SR 
Eyabi Okie Charlotte SR
 

 

 

All of these guys have good potential as 3/4 OLB and or potential 4/3 DEs in the NFL.  They are all second tear but would not be surprised to see one or two of them become very solid pros.  The Murphy twins have to love their motor and both could be a 3/4 OLB or a 4/3 DE and are good value in the middle rounds.  Jibunor I love him athletically and he could workout very well, very bendy.  Toure is a good looking athlete, might be a little small for the edge but has good range and has been productive consistently over the past four years.  Might be moved to ILB in a 3/4 though.  Joe Evans have to love his motor and consistent pressure he gives, in the right 3/4 system he could do some things.  Upshaw had a very good year on Arizona and could be a solid 4/3 DE, and Harrell will be a good value mid to late round 3/4 OLB.  Stone Jr is solid no question and has super high character off the field, and Okie was good on Michigan and played solid on Charlotte last year and will be a good late round edge pickup.  

 

 

 

Granted all of these guys returned to school so it would have been an even deeper group if all of these guys declared as well.   And sure many of them are better than the guys listed above but you get what you get.  Next years group should be deeper with high end talent but we will see.

Fadil Diggs Syracuse RS
Jack Sawyer Ohio State
Jordan Burch Oregon RS
Tyler Batty BYU RS
Seth Coleman Illinois RS
Kaimon Rucker UNC RS
Jared Ivey Ole Miss RS
RJ Oben Notre Dame RS
Tyler Baron Ole Miss RS
Kydran Jenkins Purdue RS