2024 Edge Talk

[goldfishwars]

53 minutes ago, FalconFan13 said:

I'll put it this way for Latu if a teams medical doctors fully clear him then he should 100% be at the top of their edge rushing board.  He is literally the total package coming out outside of the medical issues.  Verse where as i don't agree he is a run 1st guy i think he is more of a pure hybrid guy that can do both things to a above avg pace.  I do think Latu and Turner has more upside pass rushing than Verse but i think with Verse's run defense added in that he edges out Turner because of how raw he is.  Where as i think Latu edges verse out because he offers more pass rushing ability than verse + can still drop in coverage and run defense as well just not as good run defense as verse but still good enough. 

I do agree with you that i wouldn't take turner top 10 with the talent level in this draft but can't say i agree why he is mocked over the other 2 with as raw as he is.  Now with that said Vic Beasley and Travon Walker went higher because of those upside traits so it's probably going to happen again.  But i personally think it's dumb to do that over more skilled players coming out.  To me guys like Bosa, Watt, Garrett, Hutchinson    technique and skill guys almost always translate and prove to be better players in the long run than the upside guys. 

We see Latu the same, he’s the most skilful pass rusher to come out in years. The fact he’s not an overwhelming athlete means it’s gonna take nuts of steel to draft him top ten with a catastrophic neck injury in his history. Verse we just see different. He’s a strong, lengthy edge defender who plays the run well but doesn’t have the burst or bend to clock more than ten sacks per year. 

[FalconFan13]

26 minutes ago, goldfishwars said:

We see Latu the same, he’s the most skilful pass rusher to come out in years. The fact he’s not an overwhelming athlete means it’s gonna take nuts of steel to draft him top ten with a catastrophic neck injury in his history. Verse we just see different. He’s a strong, lengthy edge defender who plays the run well but doesn’t have the burst or bend to clock more than ten sacks per year. 

I think Latu gets a bad wrap on his athleticism for some reason.  At his size 6'5 260+  a 4.6 40 and 1.5 to 1.6 10 split  is pretty dang good imo.   I feel alot of people were harping on him expecting him to be like a 4.75 to 4.8 guy because he is not a blazer.  But if they really watch his film of the 3 guys he is actually the one that plays true to his actual speed the most when pads go on.  His chase down speed and 2nd gear when he beats his guy around the edge with technique is pretty impressive from all the film i have watched of him. 

Hopefully and i pray this is right Latu is the Falcons #1 edge guy this draft in a 3-4 and 4-3 front the guy who reported it jben/jeff  has been pretty spot on with like 90% of his reports for us before they happened.  He 100% has a insider and it seems to be pretty high up to be as accurate as he has been this offseason. 

I think people forget our defensive coordinator actually coached Latu as well in washington so that would make sense he would fit our scheme as he was recruited for the scheme under Lake originally and also makes sense why he would be #1 on our board.    

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

Im sorta intrigued why Turner is such a sure fire lock at 8 on most pro analysts mocks and boards.  But Chop is late 1st to early 2nd when they are almost the same player coming out at their level of athleticism and raw technique.

See, I think there’s a significant difference. Chop is an athletic guy who wins when he’s faster or stronger than the tackle he’s lined up against. He is speed and strength and size and that’s all.

Turner has good basics for a lot more. First of all, the measurables are better with Turner. Second, Turner has better movement ability: he can sink his hips, drop into coverage, and change direction quickly. He’s got more natural bend too.

Both are raw, but Turner shows all of the raw tools you need for everything you need a pass rusher to do. Chop has athleticism.

[FalconFan13]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

See, I think there’s a significant difference. Chop is an athletic guy who wins when he’s faster or stronger than the tackle he’s lined up against. He is speed and strength and size and that’s all.

Turner has good basics for a lot more. First of all, the measurables are better with Turner. Second, Turner has better movement ability: he can sink his hips, drop into coverage, and change direction quickly. He’s got more natural bend too.

Both are raw, but Turner shows all of the raw tools you need for everything you need a pass rusher to do. Chop has athleticism.

I won't argue that Turner is the better prospect of the 2 coming out as i do like Turner better by a bit for alot of the reasons you said.   My problem is more so how far apart they are like Turner to me has no reason to be in the top 10 with how far off he is with his technique right now.   Chop i think should be a early to mid 2nd rounder like say 35 to 50 and i feel turner should be 20 to 32 range.     Im more so in the theory that i would be ok taking chop in the late 1st to mid 2nd over Turner at 8 is what im trying to get to i guess.   They are similar styles in general but Turner does have more to work with coming out for sure. 

[DirtyDez]

So is there a definitive medical prognosis on Latu’s neck going forward or team’s just flipping a coin with him?

[FalconFan13]

17 hours ago, DirtyDez said:

So is there a definitive medical prognosis on Latu’s neck going forward or team’s just flipping a coin with him?

The one good thing Latu has going for him is the same DR. Robert Watkins a very high end top tier neck surgeon that cleared Peyton Manning and Danielle Hunter from very similar injuries.  Cleared Latu 2 years ago and he hasn't had an issue since then which is a great sign.   Seems like no teams so far are pressing him or asking him much about it either in interviews according to him.  

Im sure some teams will have their personal docs look at him but it seems to be looking up for him and im happy for him and hope the Falcons can get him.

[Daniel]

Latu's medicals are a little concerning for sure, but I also really don't like his complete lack of production against the good OTs he's faced this season.  IIRC, he was pretty much completely shut down by Taliese Fuaga, Jordan Morgan, and USC's left tackle.

[Tugboat]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:24 AM, CWood21 said:

It's not bad, it just lacks the stud at the top of the class.  The last several classes, we've had EDGEs that were pretty much locks for the top 5: Will Anderson last year, Travon Walker and Aidan Hutchinson in 2022, Chase Young in 2020, Nick Bosa in 2019, etc.  The only class that lacked that stud EDGE prospect was 2021 when the first EDGE off the board didn't go off the board until Zaven Collins went off the board at 16, and he played LBer in college.  Unless you evaluated Micah Parsons as an EDGE, which I thought he was a LB who was a pass rusher on obvious passing situations.

 

It's definitely missing that blue chip stud at the top of the class.  That's really only part of it though.  I just find the "top tier" 1st round guys in this class mostly underwhelming as well.  Just not as much dynamic talent as i'd like to see.  Usually there are some late-1st/early-2nd type guys who aren't "can't miss" but have a lot to get excited about, but this crop feels thin on that for me.  All of Turner/Verse/Latu feel more like hoping for "okay starters" rather than impact guys to me.

And then it doesn't feel like it's ripe with "hidden gems" i'm excited about Day2/3 to me either.  Limited guys to be excited about...and a lot of the ones i like are sort of oddballs.

 

 

On 3/28/2024 at 7:48 AM, Rich7sena said:

I haven't watched this edge class very much because my team does not need an edge, but my impression of Verse is that he's a speed to power rusher ala Bradley Chubb and Kwity Paye.

I agree with you on Dallas Turner. I think he will be a Tyus Bowser-type player.

 

I mean, i suppose it's fair to say Verse is more of a "speed to power" sort of rusher.  But i just don't see the same sort of power as a guy like Chubb.  

 

On 3/30/2024 at 5:04 AM, BetterCallSaul said:

I don’t agree with that at all. Verse is primarily a power rusher. I love Verse, like Latu, and hate the rest of the edge class. I like Trice, but idk about his translation into a pass-heavy league. I want to love Chop Robinson, but I absolutely am willing to say he’s an upside pick, not a “hey this dude is good” pick. He teeters the fence of boom/bust for me.

Verse has jarring power despite having average size. He has every tool in his bag aside from true freak athleticism. Very developed edge rusher, which he developed over this past season. He was gonna be very raw coming in last year, but ironed those kinks out in college & is ready to be a day 1 impact rusher.

I do agree with your sentiment about the class as a whole. 

That's fair to say on Verse.  I didn't really word that very well.  The different is, i just don't see that same jarring power you're seeing.  The kind of thing that makes me confident he's going to win consistently at the next level, against guys with NFL caliber anchors.  I see him get jolted himself, as much or more than i see him really jolting quality OLinemen.  He can be a little slippery working inside with surprise working for him.  But it feels like he's a beneficiary of being "college strong", more than NFL strong.  And when he does get stymied, he's not really much of a technician and turns into a bit of a finesse rusher, who doesn't get a lot done that way.

idk.  I went back recently and watched some more of Verse just to confirm i'm not completely missing something...and i may have been a little bit too harsh on him, but i still just don't see him particularly differently, or find much that is super exciting there.  Feels more like the sort of guy who would be in the Day2 conversation in a deeper Edge year.  Obviously there are people who really like him a lot.  Just don't see him that way.  🤷‍♀️

 

Trice to me is a Day3 "character guy" who probably has to work his way into a rotation somewhere with hustle on special teams.  He's just just a rigid, non-dynamic, limited athlete.  Feels like a kind of "poor man's Cassius Marsh" or something.  I think his transition to a pass happy NFL with even better athletes is definitely a big questionmark.

 

[Tugboat]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:06 AM, BetterCallSaul said:

Mmmm not rly. Who in rounds 2-7 intrigues you? Genuinely asking, bc I think this is a middle of the 1st round DE group and then it falls off a cliff into a bottomless pit. 

 

I do actually have a smattering of projects i don't mind in late Day2/Day3 terms.  But the meat of the "quality" in the draft feels weak to me.  Those 1st and 2nd Round guys.  Just lacking a lot of really dynamic upside for me.  More just guys who will be "okay" Pros rather than real impact players at a spot where getting a real impact is paramount.  Feels like guys are getting pushed up to fill a gap in the draft. 

Even the later round guys i like, it feels like a lot of more...oddballs and guys with more Rush LBer or otherwise role-limited skillsets.

Like:

 

Chris Braswell - Has some intriguing traits, but it's gotta be concerning that it hasn't translated to more action.  It's not like Bama is some wasteland for talent development.

Brennan Jackson - I really like, but he's really not a guy dripping with hugely dynamic athletic upside to be a bigtime impact Pro pass rusher.  He's just got a crazy motor, smart, and lots of lower body strength and balance to redirect or restart when things stall out.  Sometimes it works out, but it's hard to reliably project those sort of "effort" rushers as having impact upside as Pros.

Xavier Thomas - Might actually have some merit as a rotational "dedicated rusher" type Edge player.  There are times he actually wins...but he needs to really develop some more compelling alternatives and counters, because it feels like he often just pigeonholes himself into getting run around a very wide arc by solid OTs.

Gabriel Murphy - He's shifty and slippery as heck, with a lot of real savvy technical work to create problems, but he's very little with very short arms.  I could almost see a Yan Ngakoue type upside...but even he had substantially longer arms.  Like...i'm just not sure that vaguely more "off ball LBer" build and 30" arms are gonna cut it as a Pro.  But at least he's got that dynamic quality in spades.

Javon Solomon - Another small guy.  Actually has a bit more oomph to him, but isn't nearly as slick and elusive.  And a real tweener in that i'm not sure he's a real stand up OLB who is going to do a lot of different things for you and rush the passer.  Can be fun to watch and cause disruption, but he can also be absolutely swallowed up by bigger OLinemen.

Eyabi Okie-Anoma - He's like catnip in a dry draft like this.  Seems to have all the makings of an impact pass rusher.  But i assume it's another Noah Spence scenario, where the tools and traits are there, but just dumb as rocks and/or not at all motivated.  And that rarely works out.

 

But idk...when you have a class without any sort of true "headliner" stud.  Push guys like Turner/Verse/Latu up into the mid-1st when they feel more like Late-1st/Early-2nd types with "decent" but unspectacular upside...I'm not sure a little collection of mostly oddballs and personal "hidden gem" favorites mostly into Day3 territory, really moves the needle on what just feels like a pretty terrible Edge draft class to me.

 

On 3/30/2024 at 11:04 AM, Daniel said:

Yeah, it’s not a great class. There’s a below average number of first rounders, and average number of seconds, and then a big gap before you pepper in some Day 3 guys with upside.

Add a blue chip Edge and a few more guys at the Chris Braswell late Day 2 level and I think you have an average class.

Yeah.  If you added a blue chipper at the very top.  Throw in at least one or two guys i like better than the Turner/Verse/Latu crowd.  To go along with Darius Robinson, who i like better than those guys...but is also a little bit more of a potential "tweener".  Push some guys back down...or bring in some early Day2 guys even...it'd start to look like a decent enough class.  But instead...it's got a hole at the top, underwhelming through the rest of the 1st, big hole early Day2...and leaning a bit on a few Day3 dart throw oddballs?  I don't like it.

 

On 3/30/2024 at 3:19 PM, FalconFan13 said:

I think Latu gets a bad wrap on his athleticism for some reason.  At his size 6'5 260+  a 4.6 40 and 1.5 to 1.6 10 split  is pretty dang good imo.   I feel alot of people were harping on him expecting him to be like a 4.75 to 4.8 guy because he is not a blazer.  But if they really watch his film of the 3 guys he is actually the one that plays true to his actual speed the most when pads go on.  His chase down speed and 2nd gear when he beats his guy around the edge with technique is pretty impressive from all the film i have watched of him. 

Hopefully and i pray this is right Latu is the Falcons #1 edge guy this draft in a 3-4 and 4-3 front the guy who reported it jben/jeff  has been pretty spot on with like 90% of his reports for us before they happened.  He 100% has a insider and it seems to be pretty high up to be as accurate as he has been this offseason. 

I think people forget our defensive coordinator actually coached Latu as well in washington so that would make sense he would fit our scheme as he was recruited for the scheme under Lake originally and also makes sense why he would be #1 on our board.    

 

I don't think the issue with Latu's athleticism is that he ran a slow 40 per se.  In fact, off the top of my head, i don't even know what he ran or if it was "slow".  For me at least, it's just that i don't really see the explosiveness to help take over when all his technical polish just isn't getting it done against good OTs.

I don't really have a problem with his "chase down speed" and "2nd gear when he beats his guy around the edge with technique".  That's all just fine to me.  He looks the part of a pretty natural fluid mover in general too.  Coordinates things well.  It's the lack of explosion when he doesn't beat a guy with technique that seems to get him stymied and makes me question his real "upside" in terms of...how "maxed out" he is. 

 

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

Latu's medicals are a little concerning for sure, but I also really don't like his complete lack of production against the good OTs he's faced this season.  IIRC, he was pretty much completely shut down by Taliese Fuaga, Jordan Morgan, and USC's left tackle.

 

Yeah.  The medicals are...frankly, that's really more within actual team's purview.  But it seems like it's not being viewed as such a glaring issue.  Seems like it's apparently healed up and hasn't been a liability for a minute.  Doesn't seem like a Jarvis Jones type thing looming over him to that extent.  But it is still at least something to consider.

Though the bigger thing is really this.  And the above.  Where...he's such a polished technician, that's great.  But the fact he's not an ultra explosive athlete and can end up rendered pretty ineffective by these future NFL caliber Tackles when his technical work and gameplan don't work, raises questions about that "maxed out" quality.  If there's not much headroom as a technician...and the athletic upside is just "okayish" and lacking raw initial explosiveness.  Because more often than not, those or better, are the caliber of athletes he's gonna see at OT as a Pro...and they're generally going to continue to catch up and develop in their technical refinement and understand how to shut down his rush gameplan as well.

 

I just don't see a real double-digit sack guy there.  Or really...from any of him, Turner, Verse.  Maybe in the perfect situation they scratch that threshold a time or two.  But not as a pure, consistent, plug 'n play guy in that realm.  Turner probably has the best chance among them.  Maybe Darius Robinson with his versatility, but that's still probably a longshot.

Edited April 2 by Tugboat

[FalconFan13]

I tell you the 1 thing thats gives me the most pause on Turner is my worry that he will go the Beasley route and not add anything more to his game besides what he does now.   The reason i say this is Turner has had 3 years with the greatest college coach of all time in Saban and everyone still considers him very raw with no technique.  Where as Anderson on the other hand with that same exact coach was considered a great technique guy with multiple moves.     How come Turner couldn't figure it out and add anything to his skill set and move set like anderson did over the years.   Also what coach at the next level will he see that has more knowledge and expertise to teach him this more than Saban did.  Which Saban and his crew proved he could do with Anderson.

If someone can explain that to me i would be much more willing to be on board on the turner train but thats a glaring red flag to me right now.  If the knowledge and coaches were there to teach anderson i know they were there for turner.   So did turner just not have the drive to learn more or did he just not care to or think he needed to?

I really don't hate the guy and i can see his upside but i can see the drive and want to learn and get better from latu as you don't get that well rounded and that high level of technique without putting in crazy effort and time.  Where as with Turner i just don't understand the excuse to be this raw after 3 years with Saban where as his counterpart was a stud like Latu learning from the same guys.

[Tugboat]

2 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

I tell you the 1 thing thats gives me the most pause on Turner is my worry that he will go the Beasley route and not add anything more to his game besides what he does now.   The reason i say this is Turner has had 3 years with the greatest college coach of all time in Saban and everyone still considers him very raw with no technique.  Where as Anderson on the other hand with that same exact coach was considered a great technique guy with multiple moves.     How come Turner couldn't figure it out and add anything to his skill set and move set like anderson did over the years.   Also what coach at the next level will he see that has more knowledge and expertise to teach him this more than Saban did.  Which Saban and his crew proved he could do with Anderson.

If someone can explain that to me i would be much more willing to be on board on the turner train but thats a glaring red flag to me right now.  If the knowledge and coaches were there to teach anderson i know they were there for turner.   So did turner just not have the drive to learn more or did he just not care to or think he needed to?

I really don't hate the guy and i can see his upside but i can see the drive and want to learn and get better from latu as you don't get that well rounded and that high level of technique without putting in crazy effort and time.  Where as with Turner i just don't understand the excuse to be this raw after 3 years with Saban where as his counterpart was a stud like Latu learning from the same guys.

 

There are a few pieces to this, but it's definitely worth talking about.

In all fairness...for all the talent it's produced, Bama haven't really been known as an "edge rusher" factory.  DBs?  LBers?  DLine interior guys?  Absolutely.  But Edge pass rushers?  Not so much.  I'm probably missing someone obvious and stupid, but honestly...who are the best to come out of that program in the last decade or so?  Prior to Anderson...it's, not as good as you'd expect.

The other factor here is...Braswell is basically the same as Turner in some ways.  I think he's a little more disciplined, but it's the same story where he didn't become as good as you think the tools suggest he should be.  So maybe there's something to that.  With both of them?  Or not.  It's hard to tell what's going on there.

 

But the biggest factor is exactly what you brought up with Anderson.  Why did these guys not take steps and progress like that?  With the same overlap.

I don't even find Turner that raw in a lot of respects.  But in terms of being a dedicated pass rusher, there's a lack of development.  There are a lot of peripheral things where he looks a lot more natural and developed.  But a lot of that is probably just natural instincts and skill, which is what there is to like about him.  He's got that foundation.

 

But that's where i'm just really low on this whole Edge class.  It's just picking which real flaws and gambles you like best. 

[FalconFan13]

16 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

 

There are a few pieces to this, but it's definitely worth talking about.

In all fairness...for all the talent it's produced, Bama haven't really been known as an "edge rusher" factory.  DBs?  LBers?  DLine interior guys?  Absolutely.  But Edge pass rushers?  Not so much.  I'm probably missing someone obvious and stupid, but honestly...who are the best to come out of that program in the last decade or so?  Prior to Anderson...it's, not as good as you'd expect.

The other factor here is...Braswell is basically the same as Turner in some ways.  I think he's a little more disciplined, but it's the same story where he didn't become as good as you think the tools suggest he should be.  So maybe there's something to that.  With both of them?  Or not.  It's hard to tell what's going on there.

 

But the biggest factor is exactly what you brought up with Anderson.  Why did these guys not take steps and progress like that?  With the same overlap.

I don't even find Turner that raw in a lot of respects.  But in terms of being a dedicated pass rusher, there's a lack of development.  There are a lot of peripheral things where he looks a lot more natural and developed.  But a lot of that is probably just natural instincts and skill, which is what there is to like about him.  He's got that foundation.

 

But that's where i'm just really low on this whole Edge class.  It's just picking which real flaws and gambles you like best. 

I think thats why im so high on Latu as to me as a pure pass rusher and player he is by far the most pure and polished edge in this class with very little flaws.  Even the 1 flaw people said he had in lack of athleticism was proven wrong when he got tested.   His only real flaw is his medical history and even that im not to worried about because of the DR who worked on and cleared him.  Dr. Robert Watkins is the same guy who done the work on Peyton Manning and Danielle Hunter on the same type of issues and cleared both of them.  So if he got the clear bill of health from that man and has had no issues since then.  Im pretty ok with that at this point.   The only group that really wouldn't let him get cleared is Washington because the UCLA doctors and the specialist in the field both cleared him when he left washington.   So at that point im almost wondering if their was something up with washington's doctors. 

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

I think thats why im so high on Latu as to me as a pure pass rusher and player he is by far the most pure and polished edge in this class with very little flaws.  Even the 1 flaw people said he had in lack of athleticism was proven wrong when he got tested.   His only real flaw is his medical history and even that im not to worried about because of the DR who worked on and cleared him.  Dr. Robert Watkins is the same guy who done the work on Peyton Manning and Danielle Hunter on the same type of issues and cleared both of them.  So if he got the clear bill of health from that man and has had no issues since then.  Im pretty ok with that at this point.   The only group that really wouldn't let him get cleared is Washington because the UCLA doctors and the specialist in the field both cleared him when he left washington.   So at that point im almost wondering if their was something up with washington's doctors. 

Like I said earlier, I don't even care about that so much as about his bad play against good tackles.  If you were in a vacuum, and watched Latu vs. Arizona, then watched Trice vs. Arizona, you'd come away thinking Trice was far and away the better prospect.  I have Latu graded out as I think Edge 5, and it'd be Edge 6 if I had Darius Robinson in the Edge group.

To me, Verse is still easily Edge 1.  He's not got every tool in his chest, but he's got the size, the on field production, and the athleticism.  I feel confident he will be a pretty instant impact Edge, but I'm not sure he'll ever be a top end DE in the NFL.  Turner is 2, and I think there's a significant gap there, because all the tools are there for him to be an elite Edge, but it's not put together yet.  Needs a lot of seasoning, but even with a little, he'll be pretty effective.  Isaac is Edge 3: high floor, lowish ceiling guy who is NFL ready, just athletic enough, and just versatile enough to be like an Edge 3 in a group.

Then there's another gap, where Trice and Latu fall, since they're inconsistent on tape, but have positive games and bad games.  I thinm they're very close in quality as second rounders.  Then another gap, with Braswell and Chop Robinson in the next tier as major projects with big bust potential at like the bottom of the second.

Huge gap after that.  The next guys I like are Mo Kamara and Cedric Johnson, and I think they're both like fifth rounders.  But I haven't looked much at Kneeland and Booker.

[Hunter2_1]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:19 PM, FalconFan13 said:

I think Latu gets a bad wrap on his athleticism for some reason.  At his size 6'5 260+  a 4.6 40 and 1.5 to 1.6 10 split  is pretty dang good imo.   I feel alot of people were harping on him expecting him to be like a 4.75 to 4.8 guy because he is not a blazer.  But if they really watch his film of the 3 guys he is actually the one that plays true to his actual speed the most when pads go on.  His chase down speed and 2nd gear when he beats his guy around the edge with technique is pretty impressive from all the film i have watched of him. 

Hopefully and i pray this is right Latu is the Falcons #1 edge guy this draft in a 3-4 and 4-3 front the guy who reported it jben/jeff  has been pretty spot on with like 90% of his reports for us before they happened.  He 100% has a insider and it seems to be pretty high up to be as accurate as he has been this offseason. 

I think people forget our defensive coordinator actually coached Latu as well in washington so that would make sense he would fit our scheme as he was recruited for the scheme under Lake originally and also makes sense why he would be #1 on our board.    

Whatever about Latu‘s combine numbers, if you watch him play, he looks athletic as hell. That’s the point Kollman was making. He plays athletically. 
 

whether it stands out in the NFL remains to be seen, but he’s got great bend and great closing speed. An elite finisher in college

[MSURacerDT55]

15 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Chris Braswell - Has some intriguing traits, but it's gotta be concerning that it hasn't translated to more action.  It's not like Bama is some wasteland for talent development.

His stat line isn’t anything to sneeze at, I actually thought he ate pretty well being opposite of Turner.