🏈 Pick #13 is in! Raiders select TE, Brock Bowers, Georgia

[NickButera]

3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

 

I simply notice that a lot of people are, again, outright castigating more pessimistic takes on him without actually using substance. 

Same thing happened during free agency. We had quite a few losses to our roster and only really made one addition to make us a better team. People didn't like it when I said that, and often reply with generalisms. "oh well we could do more later" etc etc. Seems to be a common thing

[big_palooka]

11 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

And this, to me is where people are playing the ostrich head game.

On more than one occasion, Frankie asked about a 5 year average, not just a rookie stat line. And still, almost nobody had the chutzpah to wager a guess on it. 

"Special talent", "dominating the position",  "nobody else like him"....those are all hyperbole. They're fancy yet vague descriptors. 

I don't even find your take unfair- that his early stat line probably won't indicate much given the QB situation, pecking order, etc. I certainly find it more level than "needing Hall of Fame stats", as that's overkill. 

I simply notice that a lot of people are, again, outright castigating more pessimistic takes on him without actually using substance. 

Because it's pointless. Frankie is the same person who talks up stats with Derek Carr and ignoreda the stats in garbage time, so his evaluation means nothing to me.

I think he will be a first/second team all-pro in the first 5 years. Meaning the stats and impact are there. I don't see the purpose of trying to guess averages. 

[Darbsk]

On 5/5/2024 at 12:57 AM, thebestever6 said:

haha I know I'm pretty bad I really don't see Denver competing for the number 1 overall pick next year, and this has been one of my favorite classes since the 06' draft. And if it pays those dividends we're in business. The whole AFC West killed the draft though I my opinion so it's gonna be a rough division. 

Curious to know your and @Scoundrel thoughts on Jonah Ellis, I was really, really hoping we snagged him in the third round but you rascals pickpocketed him from us the selection before 😁

[thebestever6]

41 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Curious to know your and @Scoundrel thoughts on Jonah Ellis, I was really, really hoping we snagged him in the third round but you rascals pickpocketed him from us the selection before 😁

I like the value so so much I watch the franchise guy on YouTube and he's the one that turned me onto Ellis a couple months back. If he's not doing the draft process with an injury he could of went a lot higher. The motor is what I love most about him. Our dline can't compare to the Raiders tho lol.

[Geezy]

On 5/6/2024 at 3:55 AM, big_palooka said:

I've gathered that his detractors want simply want to use stats that way if he doesn't meet their expected stat line early, they can can say I told you so.

Why must you put a stat line on it as a rookie as to why the pick is or isn't a success? If we're in year 3 and he's not among the top TEs in the league, then the discussion deserves to be had. 

 

remember Mack was a bust because he had 4 sacks his rookie year lol dumb argument. 

 

On 5/6/2024 at 6:51 AM, Frankie2Gunz said:

100 percent.  Everyone is throwing around, "special talent", "revolutionize the position", "dominator" and then I ask for what that looks like in terms of production on a five year average and everyone clams up.  

His career won't be judged by his rookie season but I will say he needs to produce amongst the top 3 TE's in the NFL within the first three years of his career.  The biggest issue I have is that it was a luxury pick when we already have a 22 year old second rounder on the roster that we traded up for last year.  It's fair to assume if Mayer were the full time starter he would put up average numbers, somewhere around 600 and 4.  With all of that being said, Bowers would have to produce at a superstar type level for the pick to be justified and to pose good value. That really isn’t a hard concept to grasp… 

its a dumb concept. He was picked 13th, not 1st lol he was a top 5 prospect that fell to 13. Who else in the teens is superstar or bust in any draft? Screw the numbers, if his presence helps the Raiders have a better offense how doesnt that justify the pick? Hes going to fight for targets with a top 5 WR, a top #2 WR, Mayer etc. How is a weapon on an offense that struggled to score points and move the ball for long stretches at a time, a luxury pick? 

[Frankie2Gunz]

7 hours ago, Geezy said:

remember Mack was a bust because he had 4 sacks his rookie year lol dumb argument. 

 

its a dumb concept. He was picked 13th, not 1st lol he was a top 5 prospect that fell to 13. Who else in the teens is superstar or bust in any draft? Screw the numbers, if his presence helps the Raiders have a better offense how doesnt that justify the pick? Hes going to fight for targets with a top 5 WR, a top #2 WR, Mayer etc. How is a weapon on an offense that struggled to score points and move the ball for long stretches at a time, a luxury pick? 

I laid it out pretty clear in the countless other posts on here.  It's really not a hard concept to grasp 

We traded up in the 2nd round of the draft last year for Mayer then we spend a top 15 pick on another TE.  How many times in the last 30 years have there been two very productive TE's on one team?  I can think of one and it lead by some guy named Tom Brady...  

Mayer is now an after though and a backup TE.  It's fair to assume that if Mayer were the full time starter he would put up average stats, somewhere in the realm of 600 and 4.  The average for the top 5 TE's over the last 3 seasons is 966 and 6.46 which includes some monster seasons that skew those numbers.  

Is a few hundred yards and 2 TD's per season worth the 13th pick in the draft if Bowers falls in line with the average of what the top 5 TE's have produced over a three year span when we already have Mayer on the roster?  

 

Edited May 8 by Frankie2Gunz

[big_palooka]

5 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I laid it out pretty clear in the countless other posts on here.  It's really not a hard concept to grasp 

We traded up in the 2nd round of the draft last year for Mayer then we spend a top 15 pick on another TE.  How many times in the last 30 years have there been two very productive TE's on one team?  I can think of one and it lead by some guy named Tom Brady...  

Mayer is now an after though and a backup TE.  It's fair to assume that if Mayer were the full time starter he would put up average stats, somewhere in the realm of 600 and 4.  The average for the top 5 TE's over the last 3 seasons is 966 and 6.46 which includes some monster seasons that skew those numbers.  

Is a few hundred yards and 2 TD's per season worth the 13th pick in the draft if Bowers falls in line with the average of what the top 5 TE's have produced over a three year span when we already have Mayer on the roster?  

You are so hung up on stats. Te focus should be on what make the offense better as a whole. What sets up an eventual rookie QB for success in the offense. 

For as smart as you tout yourself, you seem to be incapable of understanding this. And it sheds light on the fact you either have not watched Brock Bowers play or don't care to understand his game which has been addressed many times. 

Mayer will not be an afterthought. He will will play the primary TE role. Bowers will be the move TE/H-back. They will line him up inside, outside, backfield, etc. Their roles in the offense will be different, so why do you keep calling him a TE?

Defense was a strength for the team, the offense was lacking last year. They added speed in the form a 4.5 playmaker and you can't seem to get over him being labeled a TE. 

[Humble_Beast]

I wonder if Harrison Bryant was signed to be a smokescreen or Raiders had no idea Bowers would be there at 13. I still think Mayer can be traded this summer in camp. I would do it for a future 2nd. There’s a shortage of TEs around the league. Harrison Bryant is a good TE2. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

You are so hung up on stats. Te focus should be on what make the offense better as a whole. What sets up an eventual rookie QB for success in the offense. 

For as smart as you tout yourself, you seem to be incapable of understanding this. And it sheds light on the fact you either have not watched Brock Bowers play or don't care to understand his game which has been addressed many times. 

Mayer will not be an afterthought. He will will play the primary TE role. Bowers will be the move TE/H-back. They will line him up inside, outside, backfield, etc. Their roles in the offense will be different, so why do you keep calling him a TE?

Defense was a strength for the team, the offense was lacking last year. They added speed in the form a 4.5 playmaker and you can't seem to get over him being labeled a TE. 

I ask you to quantify what success looks like for Bowers and you use subjective nonsense like, "stats don't matter, he just has to make the O better as a whole".  How do you quantify that? 

It's a simple question that you keep avoiding.   Production matters and that is a fact.  

Let's say that Bowers averages 600 and 4 through his first 5 years (I'm not saying this will happen) but let's say it does, would that be considered a success or will your worthless, subjective opinion be the barometer for success?  Bowers averaged 600 and 4 but he, "made the team better" therefore the pick was success.... whatever the **** that means and this is the idiotic logic being used here....  

He needs to produce like a superstar for the pick to provide good value and that has to be quantifiable.  That is based on the fact we already have Mayer on the roster who I believe would produce at least 600/4 if he were the full time starter.  

[Geezy]

32 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I ask you to quantify what success looks like for Bowers and you use subjective nonsense like, "stats don't matter, he just has to make the O better as a whole".  How do you quantify that? 

It's a simple question that you keep avoiding.   Production matters and that is a fact.  

Let's say that Bowers averages 600 and 4 through his first 5 years (I'm not saying this will happen) but let's say it does, would that be considered a success or will your worthless, subjective opinion be the barometer for success?  Bowers averaged 600 and 4 but he, "made the team better" therefore the pick was success.... whatever the **** that means and this is the idiotic logic being used here....  

He needs to produce like a superstar for the pick to provide good value and that has to be quantifiable.  That is based on the fact we already have Mayer on the roster who I believe would produce at least 600/4 if he were the full time starter.  

How many #13 picks have had to turn out to be superstars for them to be labeled successful? If the team is better on offense, that is tangible success idgaf how many yards anyone goes for if we get a W. We added a playmaker to the offense, another weapon for the defense to account for, to an offense that couldn’t move the ball consistently last year. Be he’s labeled a TE and we took one last year. Like BP said, I doubt you seen his game and are just going off the basic fact his position says TE. You were pimping Arnold who went #24, and we got a guy who was projected to go as high as 5. You would have rather over drafted a position of need than take BPA. And that’s why our roster has been as you like to call it a “dumpster fire”.

[Geezy]

1 hour ago, Humble_Beast said:

I wonder if Harrison Bryant was signed to be a smokescreen or Raiders had no idea Bowers would be there at 13. I still think Mayer can be traded this summer in camp. I would do it for a future 2nd. There’s a shortage of TEs around the league. Harrison Bryant is a good TE2. 

I don’t think they’d have a chance at him like the rest of us. 

[big_palooka]

5 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I ask you to quantify what success looks like for Bowers and you use subjective nonsense like, "stats don't matter, he just has to make the O better as a whole".  How do you quantify that? 

It's a simple question that you keep avoiding.   Production matters and that is a fact.  

Let's say that Bowers averages 600 and 4 through his first 5 years (I'm not saying this will happen) but let's say it does, would that be considered a success or will your worthless, subjective opinion be the barometer for success?  Bowers averaged 600 and 4 but he, "made the team better" therefore the pick was success.... whatever the **** that means and this is the idiotic logic being used here....  

He needs to produce like a superstar for the pick to provide good value and that has to be quantifiable.  That is based on the fact we already have Mayer on the roster who I believe would produce at least 600/4 if he were the full time starter.  

I haven't avoided it at all. I said, I expect him to be a first/second team all pro within the first 5 years of his career. What stats and contribution that makes to the offense will be a direct reflection of that standard. 

 

[ronjon1990]

6 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

I wonder if Harrison Bryant was signed to be a smokescreen or Raiders had no idea Bowers would be there at 13. I still think Mayer can be traded this summer in camp. I would do it for a future 2nd. There’s a shortage of TEs around the league. Harrison Bryant is a good TE2. 

Well, if Terrion Arnold is telling the truth, obviously Harrison Bryant was signed in case the Bowers pick was heads and we flipped tails. 

[Scoundrel]

12 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

How do you quantify that? 

Why do you need to? If they win games and the offense is moving the ball what does it matter? Fantasy football has some of you guys so numbers/stats obsessed it’s pretty funny. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 hour ago, Scoundrel said:

Why do you need to? If they win games and the offense is moving the ball what does it matter? Fantasy football has some of you guys so numbers/stats obsessed it’s pretty funny. 

In 2019 the Pats drafted N'Keil Harry in the 1st round.  The Pats won games, the O moved the ball and they won a SB.  Does that make Harry a good player and a good value in the 1st round of the draft?   

By your worthless "metrics" from the above post it does...