2017 Postseason Discussion Thread

[7DnBrnc53]

15 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said:

There is no comparison between Brady and Jordan.  You look at Jordan and there is no doubt he was the GOAT.  Jordan was by far the best competitor I ever saw...his will was unmatched.  I think if Jordan really wanted to have had an undefeated season he could have...if he had put his mind to it, it would have been done.  Phil was a product of Jordan. Do you think Phil would have taken a 90s Nuggets team to the playoffs?  I doubt it...even with Chris Jackson and Dikembe.  

I don't know if you should diss Phil like that. MJ was, perhaps, the best scorer ever (I think that Wilt Chamberlain was the best NBA player ever, though, and he was a much better athlete than MJ), but he was considered a ball hog by some in the late-80's. Doug Collins was shown the door after the 89 season because he wanted MJ to pass more.

Jackson came in, and he was able to get MJ and the others to play together. He could manage difficult people like Jordan and Rodman (down the road). Without him, I don't think the Bulls win six titles in the 90's.

Also, he went to LA in 1999-00, and was able to get Kobe and Shaq to play together well enough to win three more titles. That doesn't happen without Jackson, more than likely.

[jsthomp2007]

46 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

I don't know if you should diss Phil like that. MJ was, perhaps, the best scorer ever (I think that Wilt Chamberlain was the best NBA player ever, though, and he was a much better athlete than MJ), but he was considered a ball hog by some in the late-80's. Doug Collins was shown the door after the 89 season because he wanted MJ to pass more.

Jackson came in, and he was able to get MJ and the others to play together. He could manage difficult people like Jordan and Rodman (down the road). Without him, I don't think the Bulls win six titles in the 90's.

Also, he went to LA in 1999-00, and was able to get Kobe and Shaq to play together well enough to win three more titles. That doesn't happen without Jackson, more than likely.

Do you think Phil Jackson would have survived coaching the Utah Jazz post the Malone and Stockton years?  I think he would have been fired in three years.  However, the best coach of my era, I think was Jerry Sloan who could take the JV team at Chatfield Senior High and make them playoff contenders.  

[jsthomp2007]

13 hours ago, bMiller031 said:

So which carries more weight? A Super Bowl or an NBA Championship? I'd argue that a Super Bowl is the equivalent to about 1.5 NBA Championships. The margin for error in the NFL is so much smaller than the NBA.

Great NFL teams lose all the time. They're susceptible to losing to inferior teams every time they suit up because it's one game elimination. NBA teams rarely lose 7 game series to inferior teams. To play in 8 Super Bowls in 16 years and win 5 (probably) is ,IMO, the most impressive athletic feat in modern sports history. 

What about Federer winning at the rate he is winning in his mid/late thirties in tennis.  To me that is heroic.  

[jsthomp2007]

I am not going to concede much to the Pats, because they are known cheaters.  And, I still remember them when they were REALLY bad. 

[7DnBrnc53]

27 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

Do you think Phil Jackson would have survived coaching the Utah Jazz post the Malone and Stockton years?  I think he would have been fired in three years.  However, the best coach of my era, I think was Jerry Sloan who could take the JV team at Chatfield Senior High and make them playoff contenders.  

Jackson wouldn't even have tried to coach the Jazz after Malone and Stockton left. He only wants to coach stars, it seems. However, what he did with the Bulls and Lakers can't be overlooked.

[The Helicopter]

16 hours ago, bMiller031 said:

So which carries more weight? A Super Bowl or an NBA Championship? I'd argue that a Super Bowl is the equivalent to about 1.5 NBA Championships. The margin for error in the NFL is so much smaller than the NBA.

Great NFL teams lose all the time. They're susceptible to losing to inferior teams every time they suit up because it's one game elimination. NBA teams rarely lose 7 game series to inferior teams. To play in 8 Super Bowls in 16 years and win 5 (probably) is ,IMO, the most impressive athletic feat in modern sports history. 

The team is surrounded by too much controversy. To me the Patriots are the Barry Bonds of Football. Asterisk.

[jsthomp2007]

4 hours ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Jackson wouldn't even have tried to coach the Jazz after Malone and Stockton left. He only wants to coach stars, it seems. However, what he did with the Bulls and Lakers can't be overlooked.

I won't overlook the fact that Jackson was a great coach.  However, I think Jordan would have been fine without him. I remember the Collins days, and Jordan couldn't get past the Pistons until Phil.  However, I think back then, Jordan was just figuring it all out...he was still rather young back then.  The NBA was a lot different back then...I think the brand of basketball was far better...not even close to today when you had multiple teams who could win it all: The Lakers, The Celtics, the Piston, the Knicks, the Bulls..fun time sot watch back then.  

Nevertheless, I think if Collins stayed, Jordan would have figured it all out.  Plus, I will say that a lot of Jordan's career was created around having Pippen developing right beside him.  Did you watch the one-on-one with Amhad Rashad the other night? Freaking awesome...it was on the NBA network.  But, I will also admit, I freaking love Jordan...him and Federer are my favorite athletes of all time.  Despite the fact that I love football the most.  But, when I was a kid, who didn't want to be like Mike? 

[7DnBrnc53]

1 hour ago, The Helicopter said:

The team is surrounded by too much controversy. To me the Patriots are the Barry Bonds of Football. Asterisk.

Agreed. However, on Mornings at 5280 (Mile High Sports. Nate Lundy, Shawn Drotar, and T.J. Carpenter), either Drotar or Carpenter was kissing Patriot butt yesterday, saying how Brady was more of an all-time clutch athlete than MJ. They also were talking about how the Pats are smarter than the rest of the league, and they were making NE sound invincible.

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

Agreed. However, on Mornings at 5280 (Mile High Sports. Nate Lundy, Shawn Drotar, and T.J. Carpenter), either Drotar or Carpenter was kissing Patriot butt yesterday, saying how Brady was more of an all-time clutch athlete than MJ. They also were talking about how the Pats are smarter than the rest of the league, and they were making NE sound invincible.

I don't think they are that off base. Brady is probably the most clutch QB ever, along with being the best ever. And BB continually makes more positive moves than negative ones. Yes, he has had the luxury of a HOF talent like Brady, and yes he has made bad moves, but he seems to always make considerably more good moves than bad moves. And has been doing so for nearly 20 years. They are the greatest NFL dynasty since the Packers in the 1960's and that's only arguable if you are one that believes the (IMO relatively small) cheating scandals negates their entire legacy.

I would also wager that taking such a hardline stance is one skip away from the argument that a player indulging in steroids negates a full teams success, and where would that put the Broncos legacy in the late 90's w/ Romo and such.

[The Helicopter]

59 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I don't think they are that off base. Brady is probably the most clutch QB ever, along with being the best ever. And BB continually makes more positive moves than negative ones. Yes, he has had the luxury of a HOF talent like Brady, and yes he has made bad moves, but he seems to always make considerably more good moves than bad moves. And has been doing so for nearly 20 years. They are the greatest NFL dynasty since the Packers in the 1960's and that's only arguable if you are one that believes the (IMO relatively small) cheating scandals negates their entire legacy.

I would also wager that taking such a hardline stance is one skip away from the argument that a player indulging in steroids negates a full teams success, and where would that put the Broncos legacy in the late 90's w/ Romo and such.

It's only cheating if one gets caught, right? Bonds still hit the home runs, and they counted, and he'll be in the HOF. I'm just saying the Pats were caught on multiple occasions and I don't recall anyone associating MJ or the Bulls with cheating on the court.

[7DnBrnc53]

11 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I don't think they are that off base. Brady is probably the most clutch QB ever, along with being the best ever. And BB continually makes more positive moves than negative ones.

Here's the thing: I can recall so many moments that the Pats have had that won games over the last 16 years that Brady really didn't have anything to do with (Lee Evans, Tuck Rule, etc...). The Pats win because of the team, not just Brady. Brady is a product of the team success.

Along those lines, they also said that Brady is more clutch than Elway was. Elway played his first ten years with Dan "fit a square peg in a round hole" Reeves, who isn't in Belichick's class. He also didn't benefit from winning playoff games because of bizarre moments, and he played in a tougher division than Brady has.

9 hours ago, The Helicopter said:

It's only cheating if one gets caught, right? Bonds still hit the home runs, and they counted, and he'll be in the HOF. I'm just saying the Pats were caught on multiple occasions and I don't recall anyone associating MJ or the Bulls with cheating on the court.

It seems to me that the media doesn't want to hear any cheating accusations now. Winning is a great deodorant, and people like Colin Cowherd just wanna enjoy their favorite team with a clear conscience (the other day, Colin was talking about teams with cool nicknames losing to the Pats, like the Legion of Boom. He didn't mention the No Fly Zone. Guess he doesn't want to talk about that ever again).

[thebestever6]

I think Brady has a kryptonite of faltering against generational front fours. 2007 Giants, 2011 Giants, 2015 Broncos.  Only Broncos team to win straight up was 2013. I think Eagles win the whole thing.  They are also in the driver seat to become the New Patriots.

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, thebestever6 said:

I think Brady has a kryptonite of faltering against generational front fours. 2007 Giants, 2011 Giants, 2015 Broncos.  Only Broncos team to win straight up was 2013. I think Eagles win the whole thing.  They are also in the driver seat to become the New Patriots.

I really like PHI's chances too, given they are the better team in the trenches on both sides of the ball.  That's always undervalued. 

One key difference with NE's model - PHI's cap is tight, and it's only workable to keep all the talent because Wentz is mega-cheap on his rookie deal.   NE's contract with Brady is well-known, but unlike NE, who let a lot of guys walk once they get expensive (or trade them year before) and try to replace them mostly on the cheap / via the draft, the Eagles pay up to lock up their talent - Ertz, Lane Johnson, Malcolm Jenkins, etc. - all get top-of-market deals with little to no discount.   That's more in line with SEA's model.

 I think  SEA 2012-2015 is the long-term comp - really a juggernaut with Wilson in his rookie contract years - and PHI is in year 2 of the same window, and they have the option of the year 5 deal at 18M+ too, unlike Wilson as a 3-year pick.   That gives them 2 more years of "free" dominance before they have to extend Wentz, as they get 1 more cheap year from Jay Ajayi, Brandon Graham, Jordan Hicks and Ronald Darby before having to decide on prioritizing $ (this year they only need to worry about Beau Allen and Bradham as key guys on the D, very affordable).    But after Wilson got extended, SEA's been a contender, as they've drafted overall well, but ignored the OL at their cost (and this year it really bit them hard, going McDowell over Cam Robinson), and overall have been nowhere the powerhouse level as in their 2012-15 years.  Without more draft hits I’d see PHI the same way once Wentz gets extended.    

Still, PHI looks to be even stronger next year, which is scary for the NFC - eventually, given their spending ways, though, unless they keep hitting huge on the draft, the roster decisions will start to get tougher, once Wentz's insane bargain contract goes away, just like it did for us once the 2011 rookies stopped being bargains (which Elway masked with the FA bargains, but that well dries up a lot faster than drafting well).

[thebestever6]

21 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I really like PHI's chances too, given they are the better team in the trenches on both sides of the ball.  That's always undervalued. 

One key difference with NE's model - PHI's cap is tight, and it's only workable to keep all the talent because Wentz is mega-cheap on his rookie deal.   NE's contract with Brady is well-known, but unlike NE, who let a lot of guys walk once they get expensive and try to replace them mostly on the cheap / via the draft, the Eagles pay up to lock up their talent - Ertz, Lane Johnson, Malcolm Jenkins, etc. - all get top-of-market deals with little to no discount.   That's more in line with SEA's model.

 I think  SEA 2012-2015 is the long-term comp - really a juggernaut with Wilson in his rookie contract years - and PHI is in year 2 of the same window, and they have the option of the year 5 deal at 18M+ too, unlike Wilson as a 3-year pick.   That gives them 2 more years of "free" dominance before they have to extend Wentz, as they get 1 more cheap year from Jay Ajayi, Brandon Graham, Jordan Hicks and Ronald Darby before having to decide on prioritizing $ (this year they only need to worry about Beau Allen and Bradham as key guys on the D, very affordable).    But after Wilson got extended, SEA's been a contender, as they've drafted overall well, but ignored the OL at their cost (and this year it really bit them hard, going McDowell over Cam Robinson), and overall have been nowhere the powerhouse level as in their 2012-15 years.

Still, PHI looks to be even stronger next year, which is scary for the NFC - eventually, given their spending ways, though, unless they keep hitting huge on the draft, the roster decisions will start to get tougher, once Wentz's insane bargain contract goes away, just like it did for us once the 2011 rookies stopped being bargains (which Elway masked with the FA bargains, but that well dries up a lot faster than drafting well).

I disagree philly locks up their core guys and the rest are great value deals. The core of phillys team right now is Cox, Johnson, Jeffrey, Ertz, Jerrnigan, and literally everyone else is replaceable.  Ajayi is a 2 year rental and if he wants too much money they will replace him. Chris long and Brandon Graham are playing great but both 30. That's why they drafted Barnett.  They also just drafted Sidney Jones so they can avoid throwing crazy money at cb. 

And don't undersell Wentz and his ability to match what Brady does. Philly is creating a culture around winning much like New England did. I don't underestimate Wentz taking a discount if he values winning which I think he does. I think the things philly did which are critical are one they locked up their interior lineman Timmy Jernigan was a huge get and keeping him is huge. If we could of retained Jackson that would of been huge. And they found their franchise qb also a huge get. Something we failed at once Peyton Manning left. Im not sold on their coach yet I think that's a really great staff thats my only question mark. Defillipo can leave this offseason but no one else will because all the coaching vacancies are filled.

[thebestever6]

Where Seattle went wrong isn't the fact they signed Russell Wilson. They went wrong aquiring talent once Pete Caroll was away from usc for a long time.

After the initial gets of Bobby Wagnor, Earl Thomas, Richard Sherman, Cam Chancellor, Marshawn Lynch, and Wilson of course they failed to get new talent.

They've gotten so desperate they traded high picks for Richardson and Duane Brown.  That shows you the confidence they have in their drafting.

Completely different situation than Philly. Howie Roseman and that executive they got from Chicago the name eludes me are geniuses in the front office.