Will Tom Brady Become The Greatest...

[CKSteeler]

2 minutes ago, ChazStandard said:

Big Ben is 0-7...you don't need me to tell you that win %

You realize he's not a Steelers fan, right?

I kind of loathe this argument. The competition Brady faced has been pretty lackluster compared to the NFC Montana and Walsh had to come out of. I can only guess as to how hard Brady would sack himself with a coked up LT coming off the edge. The tightest fetal position the league would ever see, I'm guessing. The teams he's competed against by comparison have been constantly in flux. Cowher gave way to Tomlin who has in general been a downgrade. There was San Diego for a couple of years under Marty and Norv. I mean, then we have the notoriously poor in big games Colts with Manning/Dungy. Montana had the Cowboys early on, Washington under Gibbs, the Giants with Parcells/Belichick and those defenses, the Bears etc.

It'd have to see an alternate timeline where Montana didn't give way to Steve Young and ran into those Cowboys teams. Because Young did not play well against them outside 94. But his body broke down because he took more punishment than Brady could imagine. But some Pats fans think he's still playing like this because of his genetics and electrolyte water...

[ChazStandard]

4 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

You realize he's not a Steelers fan, right?

I kind of loathe this argument. The competition Brady faced has been pretty lackluster compared to the NFC Montana and Walsh had to come out of. I can only guess as to how hard Brady would sack himself with a coked up LT coming off the edge. The tightest fetal position the league would ever see, I'm guessing. The teams he's competed against by comparison have been constantly in flux. Cowher gave way to Tomlin who has in general been a downgrade. There was San Diego for a couple of years under Marty and Norv. I mean, then we have the notoriously poor in big games Colts with Manning/Dungy. Montana had the Cowboys early on, Washington under Gibbs, the Giants with Parcells/Belichick and those defenses, the Bears etc.

It'd have to see an alternate timeline where Montana didn't give way to Steve Young and ran into those Cowboys teams. Because Young did not play well against them outside 94. But his body broke down because he took more punishment than Brady could imagine. But some Pats fans think he's still playing like this because of his genetics and electrolyte water...

I neither know nor care what team he supports, I was just making a joke about the easy math.

[common reactor]

I know some people hate this argument, but I have to attribute some of Brady's success to Belichick.  I think Brady is a special talent and not just "any" QB could do what he's done, but I can't call him the best sports player of all time.
 

[childofpudding]

9 minutes ago, common reactor said:

I know some people hate this argument, but I have to attribute some of Brady's success to Belichick.  I think Brady is a special talent and not just "any" QB could do what he's done, but I can't call him the best sports player of all time.
 

Of course. Just like you have to attribute some of Jordan's success to Jackson. Or Montana's to Walsh. Most GOAT team sport players had significant help of some kind.

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, Raves said:

So does LeBron have a chance to be the greatest in Basketball?

Yeah he always did. If he matched or exceeded Jordan in titles. Or won two more and beat him in all stats..

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, m haynes said:

You forgot, Joe never gave up a interception,  never missed a  completion. I watched both play and it comical how people remember Joe. I got one, he was knocked out by the NYG and couldn't finish the game. What a wimp !!  Not sure but he might of been release after that season. I said not sure

I watched everyone of Joe Montana’s Super Bowls. He wins every single one of them having the game Brady had tonight.

People ignore how much his defense locked down other teams in Super Bowls.  In most cases Joe had to just show up. 

 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 hour ago, CKSteeler said:

You realize he's not a Steelers fan, right?

I kind of loathe this argument. The competition Brady faced has been pretty lackluster compared to the NFC Montana and Walsh had to come out of. I can only guess as to how hard Brady would sack himself with a coked up LT coming off the edge. The tightest fetal position the league would ever see, I'm guessing. The teams he's competed against by comparison have been constantly in flux. Cowher gave way to Tomlin who has in general been a downgrade. There was San Diego for a couple of years under Marty and Norv. I mean, then we have the notoriously poor in big games Colts with Manning/Dungy. Montana had the Cowboys early on, Washington under Gibbs, the Giants with Parcells/Belichick and those defenses, the Bears etc.

It'd have to see an alternate timeline where Montana didn't give way to Steve Young and ran into those Cowboys teams. Because Young did not play well against them outside 94. But his body broke down because he took more punishment than Brady could imagine. But some Pats fans think he's still playing like this because of his genetics and electrolyte water...

This post makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

[lancerman]

2 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

I mean, in two of those games, they were over at half time because Montana played flawlessly. The other two were against the Bengals. The Patriots, meanwhile, scored their first first quarter points in 8 Super Bowls last night. You are also ignoring that Brady threw a pick 6 (deep in Atlanta territory) and Blount fumbled in that first half which directly led to 14 of Atlanta's 28 points.

Then there's that game against the Rams. Put bluntly - Tom brady did nothing but not screw-up until the final drive. His defense won that thing pretty much entirely for him. So this is a two way street.

Montana lacked Brady's longevity, but he also played in a far tougher era.

And again if Montana has the night Brady had last night he comfortably wins every Super Bowl he was ever in. The two that were over by half time had more to do with his defense being very good. 

Heres the thing though, as good as the defense was in the Rams game, they gave up 14 points in the 4th quarter to tie it up very late. They did need Brady to close the deal. Regardless of what you thought of his play at the time. You still needed him at the end. 

Again, there’s at least four Super Bowls that Brady played where the other team scored more than any team Montana played in the Super Bowl. There’s two other games where teams tied the score of the highest amount scored in Montana’s four. 

So I really don’t think the notion of “Brady has Belichick and his defense” should be held over him in regards to Super Bowls

[cddolphin]

He'll become the greatest something:

And people get on Cam for pouting.

Probably something he picked up from Belichick, who's notorious for being a sore loser.

[MacReady]

2 hours ago, childofpudding said:

False.

Fact, actually.  Count them out.  Then remember he threw a pick six against the Falcons.

[Mossburg]

I think Brady has added way more to his legacy in the last 3 trips than in the first 5 by a big margin. I don't think the last 2 teams were that good and would have lost to various quality AFC opponents previous Patriots teams beat in the past. They just coasted to the SB (other than the Jags playing well), and Brady played a bigger role in them winning than he did in previous years when he had amazing teams. 2014 was also really impressive, that Ravens team was no joke and that was Brady most impressive playoff performance to that point IMO.

Basically the criticism that people had of Brady just being the beneficiary of a great team (which was valid IMO, doesn't mean he's a fraud but it's a legit knock when compared to other QBs who don't have that) has been eroded somewhat because in his later years the team needed him a lot more than before to win/compete and he delivered at an all time great level.

[J-ALL-DAY]

2 minutes ago, Mossburg said:

I think Brady has added way more to his legacy in the last 3 trips than in the first 5 by a big margin. I don't think the last 2 teams were that good and would have lost to various quality AFC opponents the Patriots teams beat in the past and they just coasted to the SB (other than the Jags playing well), and Brady played a bigger role in them winning than he did in previous years when he had amazing teams. 2014 was also really impressive, that Ravens team was no joke and that was Brady most impressive playoff performance to that point IMO.

Basically the criticism that people had of Brady just being the beneficiary of a great team (which was valid IMO, doesn't mean he's a fraud but it's a legit knock when compared to other QBs who don't have that) has been eroded somewhat because in his later years the team needed him a lot more than before to win/compete and he delivered at an all time great level.

Agreed. He was super clutch against Seattle/Atlanta and was awesome yesterday. For the first time ever in his Super Bowl trips, he didn't come through at the end but he carried the team all game long. He's the GOAT QB and it's not even a debate anymore. The way he's going, he may get another shot or two at a ring before he calls it quits. 

[MacReady]

2 hours ago, ChazStandard said:

26 is an awful specific number, slightly odd choice, but fine. Here's how other great QBs stack up in the "defense gives up 26 points in the play-offs" stat:

Brady is actually 5-7, you miscounted, that equals a  0.42 win%

Peyton is 2-5 = 0.28

Montana is 1-4 = 0.20

Rodgers is 1-6 = 0.14

Elway is 1-6 = 0.14

Marino is 1-8 = 0.11

Favre is 1-9 = 0.10

Big Ben is 0-7...you don't need me to tell you that win %

To sum up, not only has Brady played in the most games where his defense gives up 26 points or more, he's also won the most and at a higher win %. In fact, he has as many play-off wins where his defense gives up 26+ points as Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Elway, Ben and Marino COMBINED.

EDIT: Some more names.

Staucbach was 1-4 (0.20)

Bradshaw was 1-3 (0.25)

Aikman was 0-4

Kelly was 1-6 (0.14)

Warner was 2-3 (0.40)

Brees was 3-4 (0.43)

 

I didn't miscount.  He threw a pick six against the Falcons.  And you're literally proving my point.  Even the best don't win when their defense gives up that many points.  

Sonce you ran the numbers, go ahead and calculate the average points given up by all those quarterback's defenses in the playoffs.  They're all higher than Brady's.  Brady's defense gives up 20 points a game in the playoffs.  That's an elite level average over a quarterback's career, and out of multiple or even single Super Bowl winning QBs, I think only Bradshaw's defenses were better, and not by much, and in an era where defense didn't have half the rules against them.

[Mossburg]

Just now, J-ALL-DAY said:

Agreed. He was super clutch against Seattle/Atlanta and was awesome yesterday. For the first time ever in his Super Bowl trips, he didn't come through at the end but he carried the team all game long. He's the GOAT QB and it's not even a debate anymore. The way he's going, he may get another shot or two at a ring before he calls it quits. 

I don't think he's the GOAT unanimously. All of the great QBs had such different career paths that I can't say for sure who I think is the best ever. Brady has easily been in the best situation of anyone ever for so long, it will likely never happen again. I think there are like a handful of QBs who you can make a case for being the best ever, some it's a lot easier than others. Brady is one for whom it's a lot easier to make a case for .

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Mossburg said:

I think Brady has added way more to his legacy in the last 3 trips than in the first 5 by a big margin. I don't think the last 2 teams were that good and would have lost to various quality AFC opponents the Patriots teams beat in the past and they just coasted to the SB (other than the Jags playing well), and Brady played a bigger role in them winning than he did in previous years when he had amazing teams. 2014 was also really impressive, that Ravens team was no joke and that was Brady most impressive playoff performance to that point IMO.

Basically the criticism that people had of Brady just being the beneficiary of a great team (which was valid IMO, doesn't mean he's a fraud but it's a legit knock when compared to other QBs who don't have that) has been eroded somewhat because in his later years the team needed him a lot more than before to win/compete and he delivered at an all time great level.

I think if anything the last few playoff runs made hold Brady in higher regard and Belichick in less.  

Aside from 2009 where Brady crapped the bed, I just think of how many blown leads and stops we didn’t get at the end post 04.