Will Tom Brady Become The Greatest...

[mission27]

19 hours ago, lancerman said:

I think Tiger is incredible, but there's always that debate between him and Nicklaus. I think in most golfing circles Tiger is a distinct number 2 next to Jack. Tiger ultimately will be kind of a what would he have been if his career didn't go off track. He's definitely far and away the greatest of my lifetime. For me the best athletes in the major sports when I was alive would go something like Jordan, Brady, Tiger, Federer, Serena, and Bonds. But I think Bond's and Tiger aren't considered the GOAT as far as their sport. 

But yeah he was incredibly dominant and the best I've seen.

I agree the debate exists but it is unquestionably a stupid debate.

Jack was great but Tiger circa 2000 would’ve assasinated him.

[diamondbull424]

I’m not going to go through this entire thread. But nothing Brady has done compares to the dominance of Michael Phelps. Swimmers aren’t supposed to last as long as he did. Nor with so much competition are they supposed to dominate in so many different techniques. Not even Usain Bolt, I would have on the same level.

Anyways onto Brady, he’s one of the last of the master QBs. From a time before cell phones were allowed in Team meetings. He also has the greatest head coach of all time at his disposal. What Brady has over contemporaries is Bellicheck and durability. Thus he now gets to play in a league where not only is it more difficult for defenders to play defense than ever before, but also in a league where defenders aren’t putting in the same kind of attention to detail as in years past.

Thus I compare Tom Brady to LeBron James. The most dominant player of a generation of athletes where players are starting to become experienced over time, but not truly “veterans”. Some do, but just at a lower frequency. The focus is tending to wane. And the product is tending to falter.

So will Tom Brady even go down as the Best QB ever? Likely not. There will always be arguments against his competition. For the vast majority of time the Bills, Jets, and Dolphins have been trash teams. Non-playoff contenders. Perennial 6-10 type squads.

Combined with the fact that the AFC really only had 4 other QBs win the AFC Championship game during the last 15 or so years, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Manning, and Brady. And outside of Flacco all the other teams consistently were the only real competition. Part of that shows dominance by those QBs, but part of that shows a lack of competition within the AFC. Because even Brees, Rodgers, and Wilson with their talent and track record have to claw to make it into the NFC playoffs on a yearly basis because of the level of competition in that conference.

So competition will always weigh the Brady argument down. Now had he dominated the NFC in every super bowl he played in, like Joe Montana, perhaps that argument would be made invalid. But he hasn’t. And while he’s had the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history, he equally was a part of and on the wrong side of the greatest upset in Super Bowl history. So is Brady the greatest athlete of all time? No. Because he has no transcended his sport like all the others.

Jordan transcended basketball, Phelps transcended swimming, the Rock transcended wrestling, and Tiger Woods transcended golf... before his implosion. And those are the only athletes of whom I have watched that I’d feel comfortable making an argument for about the greatest sports athlete of all time.

And when I say transcended a sport, I mean to break past the barriers of your sport to attract the attention of fans that would never have even thought to watch it otherwise... and when they left they took those “fans” with them. And that’s not something many athletes have been able to do or will be able to do.

[Plat2]

Brady is definitely the GOAT QB, and he most definitely transcended his sport 

[VegasOdds101]

3 hours ago, Plat2 said:

Brady is definitely the GOAT QB, and he most definitely transcended his sport 

Yes on both.

  I think people are taking this argument too literal.  The  Brady / Jordan argument for instance.  A lot of people are like "Jordan is better because he played almost the whole game and he played both offense and defense and he was great at both".  Very true but that is what all starting Basketball players are supposed to do and Jordan was just the best.  Football is different, virtually impossible for someone to dominate in a way Jordan could (or LeBron, Curry, Bird, Magic etc.. could for that matter).  Brady plays by far the hardest most demanding position in sports and has excelled at it better than anyone.  If he wins on Sunday Brady will basically match Jordan's achievements.  That is what is being debated, Brady not playing defense is irrelevant.  In the end, there isn't a right or wrong answer, just which flavor an individual likes better.  Either way, with a win Brady is certainly in the argument.

[Plat2]

45 minutes ago, VegasOdds101 said:

Yes on both.

  I think people are taking this argument too literal.  The  Brady / Jordan argument for instance.  A lot of people are like "Jordan is better because he played almost the whole game and he played both offense and defense and he was great at both".  Very true but that is what all starting Basketball players are supposed to do and Jordan was just the best.  Football is different, virtually impossible for someone to dominate in a way Jordan could (or LeBron, Curry, Bird, Magic etc.. could for that matter).  Brady plays by far the hardest most demanding position in sports and has excelled at it better than anyone.  If he wins on Sunday Brady will basically match Jordan's achievements.  That is what is being debated, Brady not playing defense is irrelevant.  In the end, there isn't a right or wrong answer, just which flavor an individual likes better.  Either way, with a win Brady is certainly in the argument.

He is already in the argument right now IMO winning a 6th SB is just the icing on the cake and the QB being the most demanding position in all of sports is debatable, just like with the this whole topic there are too many variables.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

I'm not sure a SB win really changes much. If he beat Wentz then maybe but wouldnt winning this game be the least impressive SB victory?

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, Plat2 said:

Brady is definitely the GOAT QB, and he most definitely transcended his sport 

Has he now? Where is the proof? Jordan transcended basketball and space jam happened. The Rock transcended wrestling and built a career as truly one of the greatest entertainers of a generation. Tiger woods attracted a target audience to golf that prior to him had felt disenfranchised. And Michael Phelps impact has increased the participation of swimming in the states by about 20% since his debut. He’s single handeldly attracted talent to a sport that had started to see a very serious decline in America. What’s more his dominance would be like if a player dominated the NFL as a player on both offense and defense and also won more championships on both sides of the ball.

So what type of impact has Brady brought to football that his contemporaries haven’t? Has he done anything that Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers haven’t done outside of football? Just curious?

[Plat2]

We aren't talking about outside of sports though, were not talking about a popularity contest

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Has he now? Where is the proof? Jordan transcended basketball and space jam happened. The Rock transcended wrestling and built a career as truly one of the greatest entertainers of a generation. Tiger woods attracted a target audience to golf that prior to him had felt disenfranchised. And Michael Phelps impact has increased the participation of swimming in the states by about 20% since his debut. He’s single handeldly attracted talent to a sport that had started to see a very serious decline in America. What’s more his dominance would be like if a player dominated the NFL as a player on both offense and defense and also won more championships on both sides of the ball.

So what type of impact has Brady brought to football that his contemporaries haven’t? Has he done anything that Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers haven’t done outside of football? Just curious?

 

And Brady's tenure in football the NFL saw the most accelerated growth in viewership of any sport in the country and for many years was the only sport immune to declining ratings. Pretty much every single person in the country knows who Brady is. Brady never went more than 3 seasons without being in the Super Bowl in an era where the super Bowl went from 80 million viewers to 110 million viewers. And to put some context the Super Bowl had been hovering around 80 million in viewership from the late 80's (mostly around 80 million a bad one would fall to high 70's a good one would break into the low 90's). So there was a definite boom in football during his era and the highest rated Super Bowl was in a game where he played. Football has never been bigger. Pretty much everyone in the country knows who he is. I don't know if the fact that he hasn't spent time breaking into movies or signed up for a shoe brand really means much. Also that's not really what the conversation here has been about. 

Also here's another thing, there is no person who is a big time follower of wrestling or who knows the history of wrestling that would ever say that the Rock is the greatest pro wrestler ever. He did movies. Okay? Even in his era he was not a bigger draw or more important to the business than Steve Austin. He's not more important than Hogan who completely flopped in movies. He's not bigger than Ric Flair or Lou Thesz or Bruno Sammartino. Hell contextually John Cena was on top and drove business as the top guy for a lot longer by himself than the Rock did, and he's breaking into movies too. Andre the Giant was also a bigger. 

Tiger Woods is not considered by golf people to be the greatest golfer ever. Jack Nicklaus is. 

I mean Brady is generally considered the GOAT by most people in his sport. The two guys above really aren't. 

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

 

And Brady's tenure in football the NFL saw the most accelerated growth in viewership of any sport in the country and for many years was the only sport immune to declining ratings. Pretty much every single person in the country knows who Brady is. Brady never went more than 3 seasons without being in the Super Bowl in an era where the super Bowl went from 80 million viewers to 110 million viewers. And to put some context the Super Bowl had been hovering around 80 million in viewership from the late 80's (mostly around 80 million a bad one would fall to high 70's a good one would break into the low 90's). So there was a definite boom in football during his era and the highest rated Super Bowl was in a game where he played. Football has never been bigger. Pretty much everyone in the country knows who he is. I don't know if the fact that he hasn't spent time breaking into movies or signed up for a shoe brand really means much. Also that's not really what the conversation here has been about. 

Also here's another thing, there is no person who is a big time follower of wrestling or who knows the history of wrestling that would ever say that the Rock is the greatest pro wrestler ever. He did movies. Okay? Even in his era he was not a bigger draw or more important to the business than Steve Austin. He's not more important than Hogan who completely flopped in movies. He's not bigger than Ric Flair or Lou Thesz or Bruno Sammartino. Hell contextually John Cena was on top and drove business as the top guy for a lot longer by himself than the Rock did, and he's breaking into movies too. Andre the Giant was also a bigger. 

Tiger Woods is not considered by golf people to be the greatest golfer ever. Jack Nicklaus is. 

I mean Brady is generally considered the GOAT by most people in his sport. The two guys above really aren't. 

In terms of the viewership, the ratings for the Super Bowl have largely stayed around the same viewership level. There’s simply more people watching because there are more people. That said, the Super Bowl that saw the greatest uptic was the one of Manning vs Brees. 3 point ratings boost and 4 points to the share. No other year in recent Super Bowl history saw anything greater than a 1 point ratings difference.

I made my points as to why I don’t think he will be considered the undisputed GOAT earlier so I won’t repeat them. Just refuting that the impact to viewership wasn’t so much about Brady. For the most part, that all happened back around 1999-2008. In which case it became what it has been. League attendance during that time went from around 14m to 17.5m attendees. And during that period, the greatest show on turf and then Manning were the faces of the NFL for that time period. Since then it’s simply tended to maintain. What’s more Peyton Manning retired after the 2015-2016 season. NFL viewership has declined by 17% since that season. And just had it’s worst viewership in about a decade. Correlation or anomaly?

In terms of Tiger Woods. What I was saying is that of the players of my generation who could make an argument for greatest athlete, I would put him as one that could. During his run many thought he was better than Nicklaus. However he declined after injuries. And then his scandal forever smeared his name. And golf is the kind of good boy sport that even if Woods was more talented, his claim would no longer seriously be considered because of his off the field baggage.

—————————————

What follows has nothing to do with the Tom Brady argument.

And the Rock went head to head with Stone Cold Steve Austin in popularity within the sport. He had the greatest mic skills in WWE history. The Rock is also the only black wrestler to ever have a main event match in its history. What’s more the Rock was a team player. Having been the only ever wrestler, in his prime, to never win a Wrestlemania (he won in 2012 after his prime). Allowing the writers to allow his contemporaries to win even though he in many cases had a greater draw. 

The Rock elevated the popularity of wrestling and then legitimately became a movie star, not just some guy that’s in a couple movies. Other than Hulk Hogan there is no one with a better claim to most popular wrestler of all time (which is one of the biggest factors in defining Best). The only reason that the Rock hasn’t had as much wrestling success (in terms of belts) in comparison to his contemporaries isn’t because of athleticism (he was one of the most athletically gifted wrestlers of all time, fresh off a national collegiate title for the Miami hurricanes), but because of his pedigree.

No other star wrestler has ever been treated as unfairly as has The Rock. And because of that he was smart enough to drastically elevate himself past the limitations of a sport that would see him as the first ever “face” to lose to a “heel” in wrestlemania history (going back to the Hulk Hogan days)... and then do it back to back. He left as the greatest impact wrestling had seen since Hulk Hogan... and when he left the viewership drastically declined by about 15% in the direct few years that followed this with Stone Cold and HHH still as headliners for some of them. Even during the Jon Cena era the viewership hadn't rehabilitated.

So yes from an athletic, mic ability, and popularity standpoint (which is the true measure of greatness in a sport where not everyone has equal opportunity) the Rock was the greatest wrestler of all time. He truly more than anyone transcended his sport.

[lancerman]

3 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

In terms of the viewership, the ratings for the Super Bowl have largely stayed around the same viewership level. There’s simply more people watching because there are more people. That said, the Super Bowl that saw the greatest uptic was the one of Manning vs Brees. 3 point ratings boost and 4 points to the share. No other year in recent Super Bowl history saw anything greater than a 1 point ratings difference.

I made my points as to why I don’t think he will be considered the undisputed GOAT earlier so I won’t repeat them. Just refuting that the impact to viewership wasn’t so much about Brady. For the most part, that all happened back around 1999-2008. In which case it became what it has been. League attendance during that time went from around 14m to 17.5m attendees. And during that period, the greatest show on turf and then Manning were the faces of the NFL for that time period. Since then it’s simply tended to maintain. What’s more Peyton Manning retired after the 2015-2016 season. NFL viewership has declined by 17% since that season. And just had it’s worst viewership in about a decade. Correlation or anomaly?

In terms of Tiger Woods. What I was saying is that of the players of my generation who could make an argument for greatest athlete, I would put him as one that could. During his run many thought he was better than Nicklaus. However he declined after injuries. And then his scandal forever smeared his name. And golf is the kind of good boy sport that even if Woods was more talented, his claim would no longer seriously be considered because of his off the field baggage.

—————————————

What follows has nothing to do with the Tom Brady argument.

And the Rock went head to head with Stone Cold Steve Austin in popularity within the sport. He had the greatest mic skills in WWE history. The Rock is also the only black wrestler to ever have a main event match in its history. What’s more the Rock was a team player. Having been the only ever wrestler, in his prime, to never win a Wrestlemania (he won in 2012 after his prime). Allowing the writers to allow his contemporaries to win even though he in many cases had a greater draw. 

The Rock elevated the popularity of wrestling and then legitimately became a movie star, not just some guy that’s in a couple movies. Other than Hulk Hogan there is no one with a better claim to most popular wrestler of all time (which is one of the biggest factors in defining Best). The only reason that the Rock hasn’t had as much wrestling success (in terms of belts) in comparison to his contemporaries isn’t because of athleticism (he was one of the most athletically gifted wrestlers of all time, fresh off a national collegiate title for the Miami hurricanes), but because of his pedigree.

No other star wrestler has ever been treated as unfairly as has The Rock. And because of that he was smart enough to drastically elevate himself past the limitations of a sport that would see him as the first ever “face” to lose to a “heel” in wrestlemania history (going back to the Hulk Hogan days)... and then do it back to back. He left as the greatest impact wrestling had seen since Hulk Hogan... and when he left the viewership drastically declined by about 15% in the direct few years that followed this with Stone Cold and HHH still as headliners for some of them. Even during the Jon Cena era the viewership hadn't rehabilitated.

So yes from an athletic, mic ability, and popularity standpoint (which is the true measure of greatness in a sport where not everyone has equal opportunity) the Rock was the greatest wrestler of all time. He truly more than anyone transcended his sport.

To the first point... Brady already is considered the GOAT. No GOAT is undisputed. There's a lot of people that would argue that Lebron James is better than Jordan. It's not a lot, but they exist and some of them are prominent in the media. There's a lot of people that think Orr and Howe were better than Gretzky. There's a lot of baseball historians that think Cobb was better than Ruth. Alot of boxing people put Lewis and Robinson above Ali. There are no undisputed GOAT's. There are consensus GOAT's. And Brady is the consensus GOAT of his sport. 

Also disagree. Peyton Manning's last Super Bowl where everyone thought he would retire had less viewers than the previous Super Bowl with Brady. Also Manning was not playing for significant portions of that 2015-2016 season. The season viewership started to decline actually began with Brady being suspended. But take that for what you will it's going to be impossible to argue you cause. All I'll say is that from 1981-2001 Super Bowls hovered around 80 million viewers and then the Patriots with Brady started appearing in nearly every other game and it started spiking to it's highest peaks. 

Also nobody in this thread was really arguing marketing. Jordan was one of the first athletes to make a shoe deal and because of that Air Jordan's became iconic. Every athlete does it now. It's just everyone remembers the first. He was a great marketer. That's not really what people were arguing though. 

________________________________________________________________________________________--

Just to go to your last point about the Rock: 

-Rock was never as popular as Stone Cold Steve Austin. At both their peaks when they went at it, Rock was always booed vs him. The big business boom in 1998 started with Austin's push and it ended when Austin turned heel vs the Rock. It was one of the biggest mistakes they ever made in the history of the company. 

-Rock never won a WM main event in his prime because in 1998 Austin was bigger than him, 1999 Austin was bigger than and the more popular babyface while Rock was a heel. 2000 was really the one time Rock probably should have won but they had a hot angle going and they wanted to wait a month because.... Austin could come back and get a big pop for helping the Rock at Backlash. 2001 Austin and Rock were closer than ever but Austin was more popular with the fans and the intrique in the match was Austin. 2002 was kind of a weird year. Both Austin and the Rock could have main evented. Austin vs Hogan probably would have if Austin didn't refuse to wrestle him. Regardless the company was kind of in a downturn at the time. And in 2003 they wrestled again and they just weren't as hot anymore and the company was tanking. There was really one year in that whole period where Rock was the definitive top guy and could have main evented and won at Mania and it was 2000. That's not out of the ordinary. Cena's prime was like 2005-2003 and there were 4 consecutive years in that span where he didn't main event at all despite being the clear cut top guy. That was only true of the Rock for 2000. 

-The Rock did not elevate wrestling. Again that whole boom started and ended with Austin. Hell you could really argue it started with Hogan in the nWo in WCW (which would make him responsible for two booms) and then WWF piggybacked off that with Austin. But he didn't make wrestling more popular. And when Rock started to leave to do movies the business wasn't doing well because they turned Austin heel. It's not like Rock was doing movies in 1999 and 2000. The Rock's current stature is mostly from movies. Movies made him a far bigger star than wrestling did. 

-Rock was not treated unfairly. He was the Randy Savage to Austin's Hulk Hogan. And he was treated like Randy Savage. When they were both in their primes, Austin was always bigger. 

-Rock is not the greatest wrestler of all time. He's not even the greatest of his era. Austin was MUCH better in the ring, Austin drew more money more consistently and started the boom period, Austin was as if not more charismatic of a performer, Austin was in the ballpark on the mic. The only thing Rock has over Austin is that Rock went to Hollywood and around 2012 (like 7 years after he left wrestling) he started making it big. That doesn't make him the greatest wrestler of all time anymore than if Brett Favre had a successful movie career in 3 years it would make him the greatest football player of all time. Rock didn't really transcend the business, he used it as a platform to do something more mainstream and got popular at that. When I think of someone who trancended a sport I think of Ali who in his prime was known the world over and if he said something it had a huge impact on the culture. No other athlete is like that imo.

[sunnygsm]

People talking about pro wrestling in a discussion about professional athletes...

[diamondbull424]

Fair points. But I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on both points. Because you believe the ratings tanked when Austin went heel. Yet I believe they tanked because the Rock left wrestling. 

In terms of Stone Cold and the Rock, cheers and boos don’t correlate popularity. If they did Tom Brady would be one of the least popular QBs in the NFL. As Brady is probably one of the more disliked players outside of Patriots circles. And lastly, perhaps I’ll say this. Perhaps it’s a matter of verbiage. You’re right the Rock isn’t the greatest wrestler of all time. But he is the greatest wrestling entertainer that ever lived. His entertainment appeal and popularity is what allowed him to launch a career as a successful actor while other wrestlers could not. And that launched while he was still a wrestler in his prime, not years later. I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves. All the movies he headlined (not just guess starred within).

Scorpion King- #1 movie opening at the box office that week. Gross triples production in the Rocks first major film. Over $150m.

The Rundown and Walking Tall- Both made back production moneys. The former opening to #1 at the box office and the latter at #2.

Gridiron Gang and The Gameplan. Both movies once again open up #1 at the box office. The former break evens. The latter was a HUGE success. 22m production cost and made $147m. 750% gross ROI.

Race to Witch Mountain and Tooth Fairy. The former was once again a #1 opening. The latter opened #4. Both doubled their production and eclipsed $100m in gross.

Lastly we have Faster. Which did a little over break even. But it was largely a flop. #7 opening at the box office. However that was 2010. He followed that up by jumping on the trajectory of becoming the highest paid action celeb in Hollywood.

————————————-—

And just to touch back on Brady so that this isn’t completely off topic. But we’ll agree to disagree there as well. I don’t disagree that he’s one of the best to ever play the QB position. Just that the argument against guys like Jordan and Gretzky and Ali are just as weighted. I don’t believe they are. Heck even if we polled just this site, I’m sure that question of the greatest QB would receive much more variance than a poll about the greatest of each of those other GOATs and that’s not even saying the GOAT football player.

[oldman9er]

I'll always see the name Tom Brady accompanied with an asterisk. 

[Qc_footballfan]

On 01/02/2018 at 10:19 AM, diamondbull424 said:

I’m not going to go through this entire thread. But nothing Brady has done compares to the dominance of Michael Phelps. Swimmers aren’t supposed to last as long as he did. Nor with so much competition are they supposed to dominate in so many different techniques. Not even Usain Bolt, I would have on the same level.

Anyways onto Brady, he’s one of the last of the master QBs. From a time before cell phones were allowed in Team meetings. He also has the greatest head coach of all time at his disposal. What Brady has over contemporaries is Bellicheck and durability. Thus he now gets to play in a league where not only is it more difficult for defenders to play defense than ever before, but also in a league where defenders aren’t putting in the same kind of attention to detail as in years past.

Thus I compare Tom Brady to LeBron James. The most dominant player of a generation of athletes where players are starting to become experienced over time, but not truly “veterans”. Some do, but just at a lower frequency. The focus is tending to wane. And the product is tending to falter.

So will Tom Brady even go down as the Best QB ever? Likely not. There will always be arguments against his competition. For the vast majority of time the Bills, Jets, and Dolphins have been trash teams. Non-playoff contenders. Perennial 6-10 type squads.

Combined with the fact that the AFC really only had 4 other QBs win the AFC Championship game during the last 15 or so years, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Manning, and Brady. And outside of Flacco all the other teams consistently were the only real competition. Part of that shows dominance by those QBs, but part of that shows a lack of competition within the AFC. Because even Brees, Rodgers, and Wilson with their talent and track record have to claw to make it into the NFC playoffs on a yearly basis because of the level of competition in that conference.

So competition will always weigh the Brady argument down. Now had he dominated the NFC in every super bowl he played in, like Joe Montana, perhaps that argument would be made invalid. But he hasn’t. And while he’s had the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history, he equally was a part of and on the wrong side of the greatest upset in Super Bowl history. So is Brady the greatest athlete of all time? No. Because he has no transcended his sport like all the others.

Jordan transcended basketball, Phelps transcended swimming, the Rock transcended wrestling, and Tiger Woods transcended golf... before his implosion. And those are the only athletes of whom I have watched that I’d feel comfortable making an argument for about the greatest sports athlete of all time.

And when I say transcended a sport, I mean to break past the barriers of your sport to attract the attention of fans that would never have even thought to watch it otherwise... and when they left they took those “fans” with them. And that’s not something many athletes have been able to do or will be able to do.

It is what I wanted to say, Michael Phelps is the GOAT of all sport