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goldfishwars

By goldfishwars
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dgr81

dgr81

Posted
Posted

Most of the top left tackles are first rounders.

Most of the top DE's are first rounders.

Most of the top OLB's are first rounders.

So no, you can't do that with any position.

How many elite guards were drafted in the top 10?

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HTTRDynasty

HTTRDynasty

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, squire12 said:

How was the Dallas offense in 2017 with Zach Martin?

When your QB plays like garbage all year, even JJ Watt doesn't make a big enough impact to win you games.  Just ask the 2013 Texans.  An extreme example on both ends obviously (arguably the GOAT pass rusher and one of the worst QB situations in the league that year), but the point stands.  If your QB isn't playing well, no one position is going to have a big enough impact to make a huge difference.

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TheVillain112

TheVillain112

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Posted
3 minutes ago, dgr81 said:

Most of the top left tackles are first rounders.

Most of the top DE's are first rounders.

Most of the top OLB's are first rounders.

So no, you can't do that with any position.

How many elite guards were drafted in the top 10?

Now it goes from "top 10" to first round.  Ok.  So because GMs didn't draft the guards earlier it doesn't count?  Kind of a catch-22 isn't it?

And I would disagree with most.  Let's look at the top 5 players in sacks last season:

  • Chandler Jones - 1st rd
  • Calias Campbell - 2nd rd
  • Demarcus Lawerence - 2nd rd
  • Everson Griffen - 4th rd
  • Cameron Jordan - 1st rd

3 out of the 5 are non-first rounders.  That's not even bringing up players like Cameron Wake, Yannick Ngakoue, Carlos Dunlap, Justin Houston, Geno Atkins, etc...

 

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Soko

Soko

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, dgr81 said:

Most of the top left tackles are first rounders.

Most of the top DE's are first rounders.

Most of the top OLB's are first rounders.

So no, you can't do that with any position.

How many elite guards were drafted in the top 10?

I’m not disagreeing with your premise, but then perhaps the same can be said about Barkley. 

I think the thing about a lower valued position is that if you’re drafting them high, they should be sure-things.

Yeah, you could find a guard later, but there’s a strong chance you don’t. Same with running back. Are the odds higher than a position like pass rusher? Yes, they are. But if you need a guard/running back and you’re looking at one that you think can be dominant in the NFL, I don’t believe it’d be a mistake to pick them. BPA is strategy for a reason (except for STers).

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Soko

Soko

Posted
Posted
Just now, TheVillain112 said:

Now it goes from "top 10" to first round.  Ok.  So because GMs didn't draft the guards earlier it doesn't count?  Kind of a catch-22 isn't it?

And I would disagree with most.  Let's look at the top 5 players in sacks last season:

  • Chandler Jones - 1st rd
  • Calias Campbell - 2nd rd
  • Demarcus Lawerence - 2nd rd
  • Everson Griffen - 4th rd
  • Cameron Jordan - 1st rd

3 out of the 5 are non-first rounders.  That's not even bringing up players like Cameron Wake, Yannick Ngakoue, Carlos Dunlap, Justin Houston, Geno Atkins, etc...

 

FWIW, Chandler and Jordan weren’t top 10...

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Forge

Forge

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, TheVillain112 said:

Now it goes from "top 10" to first round.  Ok.  So because GMs didn't draft the guards earlier it doesn't count?  Kind of a catch-22 isn't it?

And I would disagree with most.  Let's look at the top 5 players in sacks last season:

  • Chandler Jones - 1st rd
  • Calias Campbell - 2nd rd
  • Demarcus Lawerence - 2nd rd
  • Everson Griffen - 4th rd
  • Cameron Jordan - 1st rd

3 out of the 5 are non-first rounders.  That's not even bringing up players like Cameron Wake, Yannick Ngakoue, Carlos Dunlap, Justin Houston, Geno Atkins, etc...

 

And just for giggles, lets try out the tackles

  • Terron Armstead - Third round
  • David Bakhtiari - 4th round
  • Andrew Whitworth - 2nd round
  • Jason Peters - UDFA
  • Ricky Wagner - 5th round 
  • Morgan Moses - 3rd round
  • Mitchell Schwartz - 2nd round
  • Donald Penn - UDFA
  • Ryan Schraeder - UDFA
  • Trent Brown - 7th round

This is a fun game. Though I will concede the point that the premiere left tackles are largely first round picks (and often high ones) with a couple of exceptions. Smith, Williams, Staley, etc. 

 

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iknowcool

iknowcool

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Posted

Everything needs to be looked at within context anyway.  Sure, you (probably) aren't going to take an elite guard over an elite pass rusher.  But when you put limitations on what position you will take in the top ten, that's when you end up reaching.  If a team thought a guard was undoubtedly the best prospect on the board at the time of their pick, why shouldn't they take him?  I'm sure Vikings fans would much rather have had David DeCastro than Matt Kalil looking back.

And besides.  No individual lineman is going to make a huge swing in Ws/Ls and holding it solely against the guard position is unfair.  Plenty of top LTs play for bad teams.  

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TheVillain112

TheVillain112

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, dgr81 said:

Fun game indeed.

Still don't think Nelson is worth a top 10 pick. Let's see if Denver is dumb enough to take him at 5.

I don't think it's ever a dumb move if the player ends up being a Pro Bowl type player (talking about multiple legit 1st team pro bowls, not hey Andy Dalton is the 5th alternate pro bowler).

Besides a special teams player and RB (because I look at RB as a part time position nowadays), I don't have an issue with any position getting picked in the Top 10 if you legit think they are a pro bowl player...

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TheVillain112

TheVillain112

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Posted
4 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

I'm sure Vikings fans would much rather have had David DeCastro than Matt Kalil looking back.

I go back to the 2009 NFL Draft.  Bengals had the 6th pick in the draft.  My favorite player in that draft was Alex Mack, but 'you don't take guards/centers that high'.  So everyone was debating between Eugene Monroe, Andre Smith, and Jason Smith. 

Now tell me @dgr81 should the Bengals have taken Andre Smith in 2009 at #6 overall or Alex Mack?

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Forge

Posted
Posted
Just now, TheVillain112 said:

I don't think it's ever a dumb move if the player ends up being a Pro Bowl type player (talking about multiple legit 1st team pro bowls, not hey Andy Dalton is the 5th alternate pro bowler).

Besides a special teams player and RB (because I look at RB as a part time position nowadays), I don't have an issue with any position getting picked in the Top 10 if they you legit think they are a pro bowl player...

Pretty much my opinion. Talent is talent. Nelson has legitimate all pro team potential to be one of the best guards in football.

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JJ6

JJ6

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27 minutes ago, TheVillain112 said:

I go back to the 2009 NFL Draft.  Bengals had the 6th pick in the draft.  My favorite player in that draft was Alex Mack, but 'you don't take guards/centers that high'.  So everyone was debating between Eugene Monroe, Andre Smith, and Jason Smith. 

Now tell me @dgr81 should the Bengals have taken Andre Smith in 2009 at #6 overall or Alex Mack?

People underestimate how big of an impact an interior guard can have on a teams success, me included. I've been against taking Nelson in the top 10 but then I remember how Alex Mack was a huge reason why Atlantas offense made such a big leap from 15-16 to 16-17. Nelson is definetley not a sexy pick but hes probably the right one for a few teams drafting in the 6-12 range. 

 

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