The 2018 Kirk Cousins Megathread

[Ozzy]

21 minutes ago, MNPackfan32 said:

In no world is Kirk Cousins the 24th best QB in the NFL. At very least he is better than 7 of those QB's right now.

 

Bortles

Dalton

Foles

Flacco

Manning

Winston

Smith

 

Carr, Jimmy G, Watson are not proven enough IMO. Smaller sample sizes of success.

For a one or two year deal I would take Super Bowl winning QBs in Eli Manning or Joe Flacco over Cousins in the Vikings current situation, they have far and away more experience in big games especially Eli.  Winston I would take over him in a heartbeat and Alex Smith is a just as good of a player and cheaper.  Bortles, Foles and Dalton sure could argue against, but Bortles is bigger more athletic and cheaper, Dalton is arguably just as good and just as not accomplished and Foles is well...  not that far away and he only played good what the past three games last year. 

 

Just saying Cousins is not this oh my gosh, thank goodness we have him type of talent. 

 

As for Carr, Jimmy G, and Watson I do not care about the sample size, as a prospect I would take them over Cousins all day long.  Same can be said for Goff and Mariota and I do not even like either one, but I like them more than Cousins in terms of upside.  

 

Bortles had 4,400 yards passing and 35 TDs his second year, does that make him this elite QB?  No, oh but since Cousins passed for well over 4,000 yards a few times he is elite?  Bortles played well in two huge games last season in the Playoffs, cannot say that about Kirk Cousins in his career ever.  Sure Cousins is a better passer than Bortles but there are things Bortles can do athletically Cousins cannot.  And again, he is far cheaper.  

 

Regardless he is not even close to a top 10 QB in the NFL, thus not super excited, but sure better than what was here before.  

[Broncofan]

3 minutes ago, gopherwrestler said:

Hey @Broncofan, we have the great Kyle Sloter too

I’d guess about 1/5 of our fan base is more upset about that than Cousins lol.  

(I’m not one of those guys lol). 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Broncofan

[Purplexing]

1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

It is interesting. It also doesn’t take into to consideration the long term team impact. The Jets and Cards can get out of most of that money after 1 year. Cousins cap number will impact flexibility with the rest of the roster precisely when the Vikings will need to resign a number of impact players. It’s not as simple as looking at one year cap allocation. 

Can you show us HOW the salary for Cousins will prohibit signing free agents in the future?  What are the numbers you've derived for 2019?

Impacting flexibility is likely also impacting wins favorably.  Can you tell us what percentage of a salary pool should be allocated to QBs, and split that, roughly to QB1, QB2, QB3?

[Duff Man]

 Nah JD is right. We'd be better off saving a few pennies and signing a worse QB.  We have $50m in cap space and a roster with few holes, but you know what lets resign the cheaper guy who REALLY put on a show in the playoffs with that 73.5 rating.

 

Why overpay for the most important position on the field?  

Edited March 15, 2018 by Duff Man

[JDBrocks]

1 minute ago, Purplexing said:

Can you show us HOW the salary for Cousins will prohibit signing free agents in the future?  What are the numbers you've derived for 2019?

Impacting flexibility is likely also impacting wins favorably.  Can you tell us what percentage of a salary pool should be allocated to QBs, and split that, roughly to QB1, QB2, QB3?

I can’t. I don’t know the details yet. I do know that a three year deal will cost more over the next three years than a 1 year deal though, which is what the other QBs signed. Committing the most money ever committed to a single player is going to have significant salary cap implications. I don’t think that is a stretch. Can you ever just read something with out requiring a dissertation to back it up? 

http://es.pn/2tFFWev:some reading (others have posted this already). 

[Purplexing]

3 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

 Why overpay for the most important position on the field?  

I theorized Spielman has been budgeting too little for QBs.  Does anyone have any stats on typical NFL teams salaries allocated by position? 

[JDBrocks]

Just now, Purplexing said:

I theorized Spielman has been budgeting too little for QBs.  Does anyone have any stats on typical NFL teams salaries allocated by position? 

It’s called the internet. You are on it. Use it. This forum isn’t here to do research for you. If you want to know something, look it up.

[Duff Man]

9 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

For a one or two year deal I would take Super Bowl winning QBs in Eli Manning or Joe Flacco over Cousins in the Vikings current situation, they have far and away more experience in big games especially Eli.  Winston I would take over him in a heartbeat and Alex Smith is a just as good of a player and cheaper.  Bortles, Foles and Dalton sure could argue against, but Bortles is bigger more athletic and cheaper, Dalton is arguably just as good and just as not accomplished and Foles is well...  not that far away and he only played good what the past three games last year. 

 

Just saying Cousins is not this oh my gosh, thank goodness we have him type of talent. 

 

As for Carr, Jimmy G, and Watson I do not care about the sample size, as a prospect I would take them over Cousins all day long.  Same can be said for Goff and Mariota and I do not even like either one, but I like them more than Cousins in terms of upside.  

 

Bortles had 4,400 yards passing and 35 TDs his second year, does that make him this elite QB?  No, oh but since Cousins passed for well over 4,000 yards a few times he is elite?  Bortles played well in two huge games last season in the Playoffs, cannot say that about Kirk Cousins in his career ever.  Sure Cousins is a better passer than Bortles but there are things Bortles can do athletically Cousins cannot.  And again, he is far cheaper.  

 

Regardless he is not even close to a top 10 QB in the NFL, thus not super excited, but sure better than what was here before.  

This might be the best post I've ever seen on this website. You have a knack for evaluating talent my friend, please interview for Rick's job when he gets fired for signing Cousins. 

[JDBrocks]

6 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

 Nah JD is right. We'd be better off saving a few pennies and signing a worse QB.  We have $50m in cap space and a roster with few holes, but you know what lets resign the cheaper guy who REALLY put on a show in the playoffs with that 73.5 rating.

 

Why overpay for the most important position on the field?  

Good lord. Where did I once suggest that they should have gone the cheaper route or that Cousins wasn’t an upgrade? What are you trying to prove?

[Duff Man]

1 minute ago, JDBrocks said:

It’s called the internet. You are on it. Use it. This forum isn’t here to do research for you. If you want to know something, look it up.

JDSensitive get fired today or something?  Wanna talk about it bud?

[Broncofan]

7 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

I can’t. I don’t know the details yet. I do know that a three year deal will cost more over the next three years than a 1 year deal though, which is what the other QBs signed. Committing the most money ever committed to a single player is going to have significant salary cap implications. I don’t think that is a stretch. Can you ever just read something with out requiring a dissertation to back it up? 

http://es.pn/2tFFWev:some reading (others have posted this already). 

 

5 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

It’s called the internet. You are on it. Use it. This forum isn’t here to do research for you. If you want to know something, look it up.

The 2 statements bolded above probably would qualify as the textbook definition for "ironic statement".  

So you make those claims and don't bother doing research, and make that statement.  Let me make it easy for you.  It's all referenced by SPOTRAC & OTC, btw:

The OP is in the FF Main Forum MIN QB Discussion Thread, page 10.  If that's not too much trouble.    Conclusion - MIN is fine cap-wise...even with the Cousins signing.   SMH @ that take  and then telling others to do research.   

On 3/7/2018 at 7:21 AM, Broncofan said:

People who keep saying MIN will have to gut their D core to get Cousins aren't paying attention to Min's cap health.

MIN's cap space 2018 - 48M

2019 - 68M

2020 - 92M

And that's before you factor in guys that frankly don't need to be kept - Latavius Murray saves another 5M this year, or next (because the signing bonus is so low).   Floyd was elite his first 2 years - but now his knee condition makes even a 7-8M salary iffy...and a potential savings.   The MIN D was elite without him last year.

As far as FA's in 2018-19-20 - Floyd's knee is already making him expendable now, he's not going to be a re-sign.  Kyle Rudolph is a great complementary piece, but at 7+M, he's already an easy choice to let walk.  Harrison Smith, Everson Griffin, Xavier Rhodes, Linval Joseph are locked up.    Dalvin Cook's on his 2nd year of a rookie deal, Thielen's locked up.    No major UFA's are on the 2018 board as a priority.   So the UFA's that matter are Barr/Kendricks / Diggs / Hunter in 2019.  2018 doesn't have any major pieces.  In 2020 both Waynes and Alexander will be UFA's - given Waynes' play, he doesn't look like he will be a guy to pay big $ to, MIN will likely want to keep one of them, but not both.

Still, you'd say, those are big $ signs, 4-5 over 2019-20, right?  Well, here's where MIN's cap health comes in - they already have 68M and 92M left in space in 2019-20.   To go with the 48M they have now.   So let's say Cousins costs 3/90 over the next 3 years in guarantees.   Well, MIN still has over 100M to spend...and that's before they make decisions like letting overpaid midlevel vets like Lat Murray, Remmers, Rudolph.   Thing is, the likely won't need to cut all of them either - because if it's a 2-year period (2019-20), even if they keep all of Barr/Kendricks/Diggs/Hunter in 2019 & Waynes in 2020, they've got the room already.    And by 2018, it's possible one of those 4 2019 UFA's won't simply be worth the UFA money, either with injury or decline.    Given the wear and tear off-ball ILB's take, I'd put the greatest risk on Barr/Kendricks.   Diggs & Hunter (although I'm projecting on Hunter's growth & development) seem to be the safest. 

Now, MIN still needs to draft well - but that's the case no matter what - because once all your great bargains no longer are bargains, you can't field a complete team without replenishing your cheap talent.   But the reality is that a starting FA QB costs 18-20M AAV.   Cousins wants somewhere between 25-30M.   That 8-10M difference costs 1 very good player if you have the room - 15M costs you 2 good players, or an elite player.   But that's if you don't have the room.  MIN has the room.    

If this was an argument about getting an elite-ceiling Rd1 rookie vs. Cousins, then you'd be making a different argument $-wise about cash allocation to team budgets.   But we're talking about MIN signing Keenum, or even Bridgewater - Bridgewater won't command as much $, but Keenum is a 18M+ AAV FA as the #2 guy, even if he's only seen as "decent" - which is why I'm personally staying away.   That's the price of QB these days.  Keenum vs. Cousins is a 1-player argument in difference...if you have very little $.  With MIN's cap situation, I don't even know that it's that much of a difference. 

Finally, for all the "Cousins would face a lot of expectations" argument - he'd face them everywhere, given the $ he'd make.   It's selective bias to attribute this only to MIN.    It would be there in DEN - and for all the "you'd have to gut the team to get him" arguments people keep applying for MIN - they'd apply 10x greater to DEN - because we have not only way less cap space, but we don't have the same value bargains across the board MIN's enjoyed (mainly because Elway's not had the recent draft success).

Add it up, it's not sexy at all, or dramatic, but there's a reason why Cousins-to-MIN is the odds on favorite.  The only issue is if MIN decides to get too cute, and ask for more of a discount for the contender angle than Cousins is willing to give.  

Edited March 15, 2018 by Broncofan

[Purplexing]

Just now, JDBrocks said:

I can’t. I don’t know the details yet.

So, why worry about 'flexibility'?   Salaries by position is an interesting topic to consider regarding flexibility.  Rick The Pickumulator may have historically allocated too little cap $ to QBs, and has just been corrected by DeFilippo.   Re-allocate The Payroll!

[Duff Man]

4 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

Good lord. Where did I once suggest that they should have gone the cheaper route or that Cousins wasn’t an upgrade? What are you trying to prove?

I'm looking forward to hearing what you would have done. Popcorn's ready big guy, what was your plan?  Because it seems like you don't like Rick's plan. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Duff Man

[Purplexing]

4 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

It’s called the internet. You are on it. Use it. This forum isn’t here to do research for you. If you want to know something, look it up.

No one on FF Vikings knows anything about salary cap space and allocations by position?  I'm shocked!  Shocked, I tell you!

[vikestyle]

12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

For a one or two year deal I would take Super Bowl winning QBs in Eli Manning or Joe Flacco over Cousins in the Vikings current situation, they have far and away more experience in big games especially Eli.  Winston I would take over him in a heartbeat and Alex Smith is a just as good of a player and cheaper.  Bortles, Foles and Dalton sure could argue against, but Bortles is bigger more athletic and cheaper, Dalton is arguably just as good and just as not accomplished and Foles is well...  not that far away and he only played good what the past three games last year. 

 

Just saying Cousins is not this oh my gosh, thank goodness we have him type of talent. 

 

As for Carr, Jimmy G, and Watson I do not care about the sample size, as a prospect I would take them over Cousins all day long.  Same can be said for Goff and Mariota and I do not even like either one, but I like them more than Cousins in terms of upside.  

 

Bortles had 4,400 yards passing and 35 TDs his second year, does that make him this elite QB?  No, oh but since Cousins passed for well over 4,000 yards a few times he is elite?  Bortles played well in two huge games last season in the Playoffs, cannot say that about Kirk Cousins in his career ever.  Sure Cousins is a better passer than Bortles but there are things Bortles can do athletically Cousins cannot.  And again, he is far cheaper.  

 

Regardless he is not even close to a top 10 QB in the NFL, thus not super excited, but sure better than what was here before.  

I understand that you aren't a Kirk fan, but your argument is nonsense. 

You state that you would take Eli or Flacco (seriously....Flacco) who have not done anything over the last several years to make it appear that they are better QB's than Cousins. You use success a long time ago to say that they are better than Cousins because Cousins hasn't won big games.

Then, you list young guys who haven't won anything at all because of upside. 

You show the ability to make excuses for anyone except Cousins to support your argument. I understand you were probably looking for shock value, but it is not an objective look at all.