What Could Have Been?

[cddolphin]

On 5/19/2018 at 1:17 PM, SilverNBlackFan said:

Darren McFadden. 

low-key good answer

[7DnBrnc53]

Right now, I am looking at Walter Football's mock right before the 2003 draft:

http://walterfootball.com/draft2003.php

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If McGahee goes #3, where does Andre Johnson get selected?  Does his availability cause the Cardinals to turn down the rather lucrative trade offered by New Orleans? 

Even if Johnson is there for Arizona, I still think they trade down with NO and take the picks. They ended up with two other WR's and OLB Calvin Pace. Also, if Johnson falls past Arizona at 6, I don't think the Jags and Panthers take him at 7 and 8 (the Jags wanted a successor to Brunell in Leftwich, and the Panthers needed a lineman. They also had Muhsin Muhammad and Steve Smith.

If I would have to guess, I would say that either the Vikings (Moss didn't have a great player on the other side of him at that time) or the Ravens (Ozzie is Mr. BPA, and I don't see them having Suggs rated over Johnson. Terrell had some character issues, and he ran a 4.9. Also, the Ravens had nobody at WR).

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4. If McGahee isn't there at #23, who do the Bills take?  With Travis Henry still on the roster, they probably go in another direction.

Penn St. RB (and future Chief) Larry Johnson would have been there. Maybe they take him.

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5. Where do Calvin Pace, Bryant Johnson and Anquan Boldin end up? 

Arizona, unless Suggs somehow falls all the way to the 17th pick.

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6. Having not selected a wide receiver in the first round, do the Texans go WR in round 2 instead of TE Bennie Joppru?  There were a bunch of wide receivers available at that stage, although the only ones of merit were Anquan Boldin and Nate Burleson. If they select someone like Tyrone Calico, maybe Calico's career doesn't get cut way short by injuries.  

Probably. If they don't take Boldin, Calico may have been the selection. I remember that there was somewhat of a buzz around him leading up to that draft.

After reading that Walter Football mock draft, there was an interesting trade rumor that they talked about: Tim Couch, RB Jamel White, and a third-rounder for the fifth overall pick, LB Dexter Coakley, and a fifth-rounder (since the Browns would have traded Couch, I am guessing that they would have used the fifth overall pick on Leftwich).

If Couch is traded to Dallas, how good does he do there? Does he still suck, or does he turn his career around?

[Calvert28]

6 pages and I've only seen one mention of Ricky William's. Does everyone forget just how good he really was? 

Mine personally would have been Safety Roy William's. Despite the Pro Bowls he was not nearly as good as he could have been had he slimmed down and learn to adjust to the new passing league. 

[Crickett]

1 hour ago, samsel23 said:

Couple more for the Chiefs

Sylvester Morris - Promising Rookie year until injury struck.

Glenn Dorsey - Actually played for awhile, that knee injury in college did him in, moreso than the scheme change.

Larry Johnson - Attitude/the amount of touches.  Sometimes I forget how much of a freak this guy was.

You know, I remember hearing that Dorsey wasn't suited to the 3-4 defense the Chiefs ran but..... the 49ers ran a 3-4 too and he did pretty well there.

As for Larry Johnson, you know I hear people ask about the ability for a running back to handle 25 carries (not counting catches, just carries) a game.  Larry Johnson is an illustration of what happens when you give a running back 26 carries a game.  Running backs generally speaking can't handle that.  Not even the "bellcow" runners.  Maybe you can find one or two in history who were able to maintain dominance after a 400 carry season, but there haven't been many.  Not even in the hall of fame. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

On 3/21/2018 at 1:10 AM, Uncle Buck said:

Keith Millard - The Vikings have had a LOT of great defensive linemen over the years, including Alan Page, Carl Eller, Jim Marshall, Chris Doleman, John Randle, and Jared Allen.  In my opinion, Millard was second only to Page in this amazing group.  He played side by side with Hall of Fame Vikings defensive end Chris Doleman, and as good as Doleman was, Millard was even better.  For years I didn't think all that much of John Randle because I had seen Millard in action before him.  In 1989 he had 18 sacks as an interior defensive lineman.  He was the late 80's version of J.J. Watt.  Unfortunately, his career was shortened by a knee injury that probably wouldn't have been that bad with today's medical technology.

 

Great pick. Millard was great. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

8 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

6 pages and I've only seen one mention of Ricky William's. Does everyone forget just how good he really was? 

Mine personally would have been Safety Roy William's. Despite the Pro Bowls he was not nearly as good as he could have been had he slimmed down and learn to adjust to the new passing league. 

Don't think there has been a better runner to come out of college since Ricky Williams. If only he didn't play for the Saints and Dolphins. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Marcus Lattimore for the 49ers. It's a shame we didn't even get to see a snap of what he could potentially do in a game. His knee was just torn to shreds though. He's a motivational speaker now, and really seems like a humble person based on a recent interview I listened to. Apparently his short time out in California really changed his life in multiple ways. 

[Calvert28]

4 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Marcus Lattimore for the 49ers. It's a shame we didn't even get to see a snap of what he could potentially do in a game. His knee was just torn to shreds though. He's a motivational speaker now, and really seems like a humble person based on a recent interview I listened to. Apparently his short time out in California really changed his life in multiple ways. 

Lattimore would have been a pretty good NFL back. Reminded me of Larry Johnson.  I thought he became a coach.

4 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Don't think there has been a better runner to come out of college since Ricky Williams. If only he didn't play for the Saints and Dolphins. 

Only 3 guys can compete and even then they didn't receive as high a grade from me as Ricky. Ricky is still the best RB I have ever scouted.

[dll2000]

We will never now how many QBs failed because of lack of opportunity or bad situations.  Or how many WRs would have been great or far better known with decent QB play.  

As far as injury players that come to mind immediately and others have mentioned are Steve Emtman and Bo Jackson    Bo at least people got to see on display.  

I never saw Emtman play.  I dont live on West coast.  As a boy I remember in run up to that draft a great RB saying in an interview that Emtman squeezed him one time and cracked a rib.   Not hit him, squeezed him.  

Heard another player in that draft say Emtman hit him harder than anyone.  A lineman asked who is hardest to block, said Emtman without pause.  

May have to go on net and try to find some footage    

 

[cddolphin]

5 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Don't think there has been a better runner to come out of college since Ricky Williams. If only he didn't play for the Saints and Dolphins. 

He found success in Miami - he just had that mental.. episode?.. after a few seasons. Perhaps you can lay blame soley at the feet of Wannestedt, but I don't think that's fair.. with Ricky's personality, and with hindsight, he seemed like a ticking time bomb tbh.

He came back and did really well too, once he found balance within himself.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

5 minutes ago, cddolphin said:

He found success in Miami - he just had that mental.. episode?.. after a few seasons. Perhaps you can lay blame soley at the feet of Wannestedt, but I don't think that's fair.. with Ricky's personality, and with hindsight, he seemed like a ticking time bomb tbh.

He came back and did really well too, once he found balance within himself.

On his episode of A Football Life he claimed that after the 2003 season he wasn't looking forward to carrying the ball so many more times, which he knew he would have to do since the Dolphins did nothing to improve the QB position. Don't think is a good excuse to cut out in playing ball for a team, but they would have just ran him into the ground had he stayed. I remember one game he carried the ball 40 times, which is horrible. 

[cddolphin]

2 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

On his episode of A Football Life he claimed that after the 2003 season he wasn't looking forward to carrying the ball so many more times, which he knew he would have to do since the Dolphins did nothing to improve the QB position. Don't think is a good excuse to cut out in playing ball for a team, but they would have just ran him into the ground had he stayed. I remember one game he carried the ball 40 times, which is horrible. 

Yeah he definitely had too many touches, but I don't think the difference between a 320 touch season and a 360 touch season was the main motivating factor. Any coach would have used him extensively, it's how it was done then especially with someone of Ricky's caliber. He was a bit off, using a rapper as an agent, wearing his helmet to press conferences to cover his face, etc. The pain on his body was likely the final straw.

[iknowcool]

Ronnie Brown

So much physical talent, but couldn't stay healthy.

I wonder how much better MJD's numbers would have been if he hadn't needed to split carries in his first three seasons.  He fell-off at 27 years old and still eclipsed 11,000 YFS.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

35 minutes ago, cddolphin said:

Yeah he definitely had too many touches, but I don't think the difference between a 320 touch season and a 360 touch season was the main motivating factor. Any coach would have used him extensively, it's how it was done then especially with someone of Ricky's caliber. He was a bit off, using a rapper as an agent, wearing his helmet to press conferences to cover his face, etc. The pain on his body was likely the final straw.

True. He was still a little off. Or maybe just had some hippie in him. If he had gone to a place like Denver or San Francisco, he doesn't see nearly that many touches. In 2002 he had 383 rushing attempts and in 2003 392. That doesn't count the amount of times he caught the ball. Even for the early 2000s that is absurd. It would be in 1985. Earl Campbell never even had close to that many touches in a year. Dave Wannstedt was nutty.

[Forge]

6 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Marcus Lattimore for the 49ers. It's a shame we didn't even get to see a snap of what he could potentially do in a game. His knee was just torn to shreds though. He's a motivational speaker now, and really seems like a humble person based on a recent interview I listened to. Apparently his short time out in California really changed his life in multiple ways. 

The thing about Lattimore, and some others that have been named in this thread, is that he never really showed anything at the NFL anyway. So it's hard for me to consider him a great "what if" guy. For all we know, perfectly healthy, he could have been a complete bust. Same thing with Kijana Carter. For these type of questions, I always like to look at guys who actually did something at the NFL level, and then something happened and changed the tide. 

Robert smith, who was mentioned earlier by @bkobow05, is a great answer. He clearly had the talent to be amazing as an NFL football player. From 95-2000, he was never outside the top 10 in yards per attempt (only one outside the top 7), a few years in the top 3.  His all time yards per attempt is 13th, and if you take out the quarterbacks above him, he's top 10 - he has the same yards per attempt as Peterson.  Out of the 10 ahead of him, only 3 have his carry total or more (Charles has a very similar overall carry total, then of course Sanders and Jim Brown - most of the others hover between 600 and 400 fewer carries than Smith had in his career). Not counting his first two years in the league, where he was basically a back up and played somewhat sparingly,    he average over 85 yards per game, which would have been a top 10 all time average pace (how did the Vikings want to roll with Terry Allen?). Now granted, you can't just do that, but you also can't ignore it. To me, Robert Smith was a hall of fame talent running back, but injuries and then an early retirement basically make him ideal for a "what if" scenario. 

(Side note...you could probably add Charles to the what if scenario if you wanted if you really think about it)