Baker Mayfield No. 1

[BleedTheClock]

[BleedTheClock]

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

...what

Me and @Thomas5737 agree that we'd rather Baker look like Darnold physically.

Initially he argued that Baker was thicker. I suppose by ratio he is 1/20th of 1% thicker. I'll take the extra 2-3 inches is all I was saying.

2 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

But to say Baker is an injury risk where Darnold apparently isn't is one of the worst takes in the history of takes.

I said that Mayfield is at a greater risk of injury taking a hit than Darnold because his frame is smaller.

2 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

How does being 3 inches taller help you avoid injury?

I said that I preferred the extra 3 inches due to me liking prototype QB's, not at all about injuries.

2 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

If we are playing that game, 3 inches of height make you more likely to get hurt because it, in theory, would expose your ribs more to pass rushers. But again, this is a stupid argument.

It is a stupid argument, that's why I didn't use it. You're mixing two different things that I said and applying that logic to injuries.

2 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Neither are at risk of getting injured because of their frames. It seems like another dumb shot you're throwing at Mayfield in an attempt to make you sound less like a hater.

Why would I want to sound like less of a hater? My hate for Mayfield is well documented and I own all of it. I'm backing up everything and staying consistent, unlike half of this forum who automatically loves him and think that he's the next greatest thing and going to be better than Darnold just because we drafted him. NOW THAT is stupid and inconsistent logic.

[BleedTheClock]

Just now, MWil23 said:

Initially he argued that Baker was thicker. I suppose by ratio he is 1/20th of 1% thicker. I'll take the extra 2-3 inches is all I was saying.

[MWil23]

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

[BleedTheClock]

8 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Why would I want to sound like less of a hater? My hate for Mayfield is well documented and I own all of it. I'm backing up everything and staying consistent, unlike half of this forum who automatically loves him and think that he's the next greatest thing and going to be better than Darnold just because we drafted him. NOW THAT is stupid and inconsistent logic.

I'm on record saying he was going to be a superstar QB well before the rumors that he was even in play for us at #1 came out. And so did most of the other Baker supporters on here now. I am on record as saying I thought Darnold was the better prospect. I would have taken Darnold, but the difference between he and Baker/Rosen/Allen---in that order---was insignificant. I just don't buy the argument that Darnold is significantly better than these guys for the reasons you laid out. I would have taken Darnold #1 because he is more of the prototype. But that's the only thing I think he has over Baker. And he threw a more NFL-simulated passing tree.

I spent a ton of time evaluating the QB's this year and didn't spend nearly as much time on the later round guys. About 80% of my time this year was spent on the QB's. And Baker's tape was the most impressive. If Baker was 6'3, he's a slam-dunk, no-brainer #1 pick. The size concerns me a little bit, but not enough to consider him a bad #1 pick. I haven't wavered in my stance whatsoever based on who the Browns drafted. I hate when people jump the ship and make themselves like a pick. I admire you for staying true to your opinion, even if I think it's wrong. 

 

Oh and I guess you're right. You haven't really hidden the fact that you don't like Baker as a person.

[MWil23]

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

I'm on record saying he was going to be a superstar QB well before the rumors that he was even in play for us at #1 came out. And so did most of the other Baker supporters on here now.

Like I said, half. If you and others aren't in the half, I wasn't addressing you specifically.

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

I am on record as saying I thought Darnold was the better prospect. I would have taken Darnold 

And to me, that's what makes the pick a bad one. Darnold IMO was clearly better. People in our own FO have admitted as much, and over 2/3 of NFL GMs have agreed.

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

 but the difference between he and Baker/Rosen/Allen---in that order---was insignificant.

Hopefully you're right. I had it like this:

Darnold

 

 

 

Rosen

Mayfield

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

I just don't buy the argument that Darnold is significantly better than these guys for the reasons you laid out. I would have taken Darnold #1 because he is more of the prototype. But that's the only thing I think he has over Baker. And he threw a more NFL-simulated passing tree.

And he's younger. And we will disagree on this, but I like his attitude and intangibles more than Baker.

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

I spent a ton of time evaluating the QB's this year and didn't spend nearly as much time on the later round guys. About 80% of my time this year was spent on the QB's. And Baker's tape was the most impressive. If Baker was 6'3, he's a slam-dunk, no-brainer #1 pick.

That's a big IF. He's not 6'3. I also wouldn't say that it's a slam dunk/no brainer. I think that it's more of a debate though.

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

The size concerns me a little bit, but not enough to consider him a bad #1 pick. I haven't wavered in my stance whatsoever based on who the Browns drafted. I hate when people jump the ship and make themselves like a pick. I admire you for staying true to your opinion, even if I think it's wrong. 

That's cool. Like I said, we'll agree to disagree on a lot. I know that guys like you and @LETSGOBROWNIES have been on record as saying that Darnold was their favorite but that you also really liked Baker.

I will continue to hope that Baker proves me wrong and continues his underdog story. I don't see it. He's also not an underdog anymore since he was the #1 overall pick.

[BleedTheClock]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

And he's younger. And we will disagree on this, but I like his attitude and intangibles more than Baker.

Yeah the age thing is a good argument. But it's not something I'm worried about very much. QB's progress mentally, not physically. If we were debating runningbacks, I'd be 100% in agreement with you. But for QB's, age isn't really a major factor for me. Both should have their mental flaws ironed out in 2-3 years in theory. And if both are studs, as I expect to be the case, Baker can play until the year 2034 where Darnold can play until the year 2037. Not that much of a difference.

 

But yeah, I'd check "age" as another box for Darnold. I'll obviously always opt for younger over older in my draft prospects.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

Yeah the age thing is a good argument. But it's not something I'm worried about very much. QB's progress mentally, not physically. If we were debating runningbacks, I'd be 100% in agreement with you. But for QB's, age isn't really a major factor for me. Both should have their mental flaws ironed out in 2-3 years in theory. And if both are studs, as I expect to be the case, Baker can play until the year 2034 where Darnold can play until the year 2037. Not that much of a difference.

 

But yeah, I'd check "age" as another box for Darnold. I'll obviously always opt for younger over older in my draft prospects.

Oh, don't get me wrong, if Baker and Darnold both pan out and are basically equal, the age thing won't factor in as well. I won't care at all if Baker is the next Aaron Rodgers and gets a "late start" if he's an absolute stud.

However, I liked Darnold to sit an entire year behind Tyrod, iron out some of those rougher spots (turnovers/reading a defense) and then be ready to rock and roll next year or even in 2018 as a 22/23 year old. With his, in my opinion, superior "measurables", that gives him the edge in that area.

[Kiwibrown]

What do people think about Bakers mobility? 

His athleticism is better than Kessler’s by a fraction and worse than Keemun’s. 

no one thinks of those guys as plus athletes. 

[BleedTheClock]

4 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

What do people think about Bakers mobility? 

His athleticism is better than Kessler’s by a fraction and worse than Keemun’s. 

no one thinks of those guys as plus athletes. 

He's not a stellar athlete that will run all over the place. He's elusive as hell though. While it's not a trait tied to his athleticism necessarily, his ability to Houdini out of trouble is a 10/10. People think that he created using his legs at Oklahoma and it won't translate. While that is somewhat true, he doesn't use his legs to outrun people. He uses his legs to get to green grass to deliver the football from a clean space. And he is a master of always getting to that spot, whether he has to step up, step back, laterally slide left or right, or bootleg out of the pocket entirely to set up outside the tackle box. He's a wizard at using his legs in a way that doesn't require elite athleticism.

He's a lot better athlete than both Keenum and Kessler though. He'll do SOME damage running, but it'll be more because of his ability to get to green grass more than because of his ability to get the edge on teams. And he's definitely a threat on zone/read stuff still. The kid is good enough to get yards if the DE crashes. He's not THAT slow that he won't be able to take advantage of the yards the defense gives him in the run game.

[Mind Character]

6 hours ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

@Mind Character You're overanalyzing some of the blatant mistakes in Darnold. When his footwork leads him closer to pressure, that has nothing to do with poor O-line play, receivers running the wrong routes, etc. When he holds the ball too long because he's looking for the homerun play, and shrugs off wide open receivers, that's not on the line or the receivers either.

Cmon man, you're like in denial, looking for any little reason to claim Sammy D is perfect. He's not, none of em are. I understand he's your guy, but the way you defend him, it's like you're a Sam Darnold burner account. Sheesh.

You're ridiculous ...

What games are you even talking about?

I put a sound criteria for evaluation out there... not only for Darnold but for other players... you have no specifics and no reasoning/criteria for evaluation of film.

You have no specific games to cite and take a general impression of a few games to be the rule on a player's entire career because it fits with a narrative that you agree with.

I laid out how a person can test claims about players based on traditional scouting analysis.

A person then uses that lens and let's the data and game film tell the story.... whether it says a player one likes is terrible or not.

That way one can have specific insight on when, how, why of when a player of any position performs poorly.

The criteria for evaluation I laid out was detailed and thorough... I never once said there weren't plays in games where things weren't Darnold's fault... On the contrary, I said there were numerous times.... but then I asked you for specifics... you had none...

When pressed for details or your criteria of your claims, you say stuff like "you defend him and think he's perfect..." again, with nothing to substantiate your claim in a debate on the validity of your claim.

I'm not in denial about anything, I have the reasoned analysis of experts on my aside and consensus along with the thorough work I've done to better understand football players this past draft season for fun/overall understanding.

You have rationalization, confirmation bias, popular narratives, your gut, and non-evidenced based claims on your side.

There's a difference between someone that says "1. The large percentage and majority of sacks were Sam Darnold's fault... " as you've said without offering any evidence or specifics or criteria for how one arrives at such a conclusion.

And someone that says "2. How can we test that claim, is there a good test to see if that's true or not? If so, what is the result of such tests for multiple people with good criteria to assess if that's true or not"

You hear what you want to hear... no one ever said Darnold was perfect...

Before you even posted a lot... since last year I've talked about Darnold's and other players flaws and positives... I've talked about what flaws discussed in the media match the data and what flaw do not, and how one can test such claims... I've talked about Darnold's poor foot work, his poor recognition, him holding onto the ball, him going for the home run, him not trusting his OL, and all types of other things for months and months and did so with nuance, context, and sound criteria for analysis even if other's disagree with my assessments.

You speak in unsubstantiated generalities "The LARGE PERCENTAGE of sacks are his fault.... the Vast MAJORITY of issues didn't have to do with the OL.. the problems were MOSTLY him holding onto the ball...."

Those are claims like other's that can be tested for their validity... and if you did the work with a rubric and understanding of traditional football scouting analysis you'd probably arrive at a similar opinion that approximates that of experts in the scouting community...

Instead, you have your gut and what feels like it's true.... so I guess just keep going with that...

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

13 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

What do people think about Bakers mobility? 

His athleticism is better than Kessler’s by a fraction and worse than Keemun’s. 

no one thinks of those guys as plus athletes. 

I want a QB who can evade a rush, make a guy miss every now and then and pick up some yards when the defense leaves them there for the taking.

Anything more than that is irrelevant imo.  Sure it’s great to have a “dual threat”, but those guys don’t hold up in the league.  

I want a guy that can get some yards and then gets down/out of bounds before they get hit.

Baker can do those things.

[Mind Character]

35 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

What do people think about Bakers mobility? 

His athleticism is better than Kessler’s by a fraction and worse than Keemun’s. 

no one thinks of those guys as plus athletes. 

He's special when it comes to mobility and short area quickness and escapability....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NudeTayne]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Whatever you say Dizzy. You're getting too chummy.

If you're worried about me liking you too much, rest assured that I think you're one of the worst posters on this site. I'll take @DizzyDean's QB predictions over yours and just leave it at that.

53 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

another dumb shot you're throwing at Mayfield in an attempt to make you sound less like a hater.

This.