Baker Mayfield No. 1

[DizzyDean]

Wow, so much butt hurt mis evaluation here that it’s scary and biarderline delusional.

[MistaBohmbastic]

4 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I don't care as much about the "under center" stuff. I care more about the college scheme that is designed for countless QBs to succeed there at the college level and doesn't really translate to the NFL at all whatsoever, aside from a lot of other issues. Can his smaller frame take a lot of hits? Georgia hurt him and it showed when he played a legitimate NFL caliber defense in the 2nd half. Frame matters, like it or not.

You have every right to despise this pick, but some of your reasoning just feels more to me like spite than logic:

Yes, he played in a QB-friendly scheme. He also managed to have both the FIRST AND SECOND most successful seasons for a college QB. Now, QB-friendly or not, what he did with OU was beyond anything that had been accomplished before him in recent years, and that speaks to his execution. Not to mention, his leadership and intelligence has made him a coach on the field. His ability to make adjustments and audibles on the fly like he has was nothing short of impressive, and it was also a contributor to his success IN ADDITION to the scheme. I mean, plenty of QB's have played in schemes that have been a major part of their success, but few have executed in them to the degree of Mayfield. He still demonstrated incredible accuracy and capability, including under pressure and in tight windows. 

I get the knock, but I don't believe it to be entirely valid.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

My logic implies just who I cared about/wanted based upon who I thought was best, which was ARod for all of the above reasons. Any time you have the #1 pick and don't get the best QB in the draft, that's automatically a failure, even if that QB turns out to be good, which is the point that I was trying to make. It doesn't necessarily imply a 1 to 1 correspondence.

The best QB in the draft is definitely debatable now, but it likely won’t be in 10 years.  I’m hoping they are right then, even if it looks like they weren’t/aren’t now.

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I mean, I personally still believe that Dorsey and Wolf knew that they wanted Baker all along before they were even hired here. I don't believe for one second that they could separate their own preconceived conclusions after they were hired here.  Dorsey saw little Favre, got his Green Bay flashback, and the pick was made a LONG time ago.

Wolf states he had Mayfield graded while still employed by GB and didn’t really have a dog in the fight as GB wasn’t drafting a QB.  His grade only became relevant when he was hired here.

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I was responding to an opinion with an opinion.

That’s your fault ? 

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I never said that Baker didn't have a good arm. I said that I have seen others say that Darnold's arm is just as strong (or stronger), so that's not automatically a "win" for Baker when they're compared as was stated by Thomas.

Perhaps. I'd also be willing to bet that at no point in their career Tom Brady or Joe Montana could have hit anywhere close to that mark. Arm strength is a VERY nice indicator, especially coupled with accuracy, which Mayfield looks to have. That said, I'll take all of the back shoulder fades, deep comebacks, and 10-12 yard out routes on a frozen rope that I saw from Darnold the last two years over a gimmicky Air Raid passing tree that schemes dudes open for days/decades like it did with Bradford, Jason White, and Josh Heupel. It's not Baker's fault that he's in that system, but it's not a notch in his belt as a positive either.

I don’t disagree, but as I’ve said, we just chose Rivers or Ben over Eli.  There’s was no wrong choice other than Allen IMO.

All 3 of those dudes have the talent and such to succeed, it’s up to them and the organizations that drafted them to develop them properly.

Also the system argument is becoming somewhat antiquated.  10 years ago? You bet.  Nowadays? Idk... lots of teams are using those same concepts in today’s NFL.  Maybe not antiquated, but overblown. The difference between NFL and college QBing isn’t as big schematically now as it was 10 years ago.

[MWil23]

17 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

You have every right to despise this pick, but some of your reasoning just feels more to me like spite than logic:

It's a combination of both. I'm not discarding my opinions, analysis, and logic that I've had just because we drafted Mayfield over Darnold. To do so would be a homer move. I try to say call them like I see them. Sometimes I'm wrong, like I hopefully am now.

17 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

Yes, he played in a QB-friendly scheme. He also managed to have both the FIRST AND SECOND most successful seasons for a college QB.

Kessler was Top 5 on that list as well. That doesn't mean that I want him as my Franchise QB.

17 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

Now, QB-friendly or not, what he did with OU was beyond anything that had been accomplished before him in recent years, and that speaks to his execution.

It definitely does. Hopefully it translates to the NFL.

17 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

Not to mention, his leadership and intelligence has made him a coach on the field.

I don't care at all for his leadership style or attitude. He's the exact opposite of what I look for in a QB in that regard. I'd prefer someone with a calm, cool, stone cold demeanor as opposed to brash, arrogant, and toolbag.

17 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

His ability to make adjustments and audibles on the fly like he has was nothing short of impressive, and it was also a contributor to his success IN ADDITION to the scheme.

Like I said earlier, the mental is what I have no idea about (or any other QB for that matter) as I'm not a pre-snap savant when it comes to analyzing QBs, or how scheme dependent teams/systems are for their QBs.

17 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

I mean, plenty of QB's have played in schemes that have been a major part of their success, but few have executed in them to the degree of Mayfield. He still demonstrated incredible accuracy and capability, including under pressure and in tight windows. 

I get the knock, but I don't believe it to be entirely valid.

Time will tell. He was the #1 pick and has a bunch of weapons around him and is set up for success more than any Browns QB since 2007. He will not be given excuses and will have lofty expectations that I expect him to live up to as the #1 overall pick in the draft. He'd better be the best player and QB in this entire draft, period.

[BleedTheClock]

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

He's shorter and weighs less. That means he's not as big. A bigger hit on his frame will do more damage.

He has a thicker frame. And being shorter would actually help prevent injuries in this case if that's what you're so concerned about with Mayfield.

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

A 4.84 forty to a 4.85 forty. Congratulations Baker, you're 1/100 of a second faster than Darnold.

...but you and other seem to be pushing the narrative that Darnold is some stud athlete and Baker is not. I don't know if it was you exactly, but I've seen several people on this board claim that Darnold is faster than Baker. Which is false both on tape and based on the combine, which isn't anything to get caught up in anyways.

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Actually Darnold was 4/100 of a second better in the 3 Cone. I guess he is quicker after all. (6.96 to a 7.0)

I guess, but if you watch tape, it's quite obvious that Baker is quicker and much more elusive. Baker's times were much slower than anticipated because he plays so much faster on tape.

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2018-nfl-draft-rankings-accuracy-arm-strength-and-everything-to-know-about-qbs/

This list has Darnold ahead of Mayfield

Darnold does not have a weak arm, but it's not as good as Baker's IMO. Baker throws with much more zip on his passes. And Baker can make big throws with a more compact release both on the run and in the pocket. Darnold has a long wind-up delivery and isn't able to put the same stank on the ball that Baker can. Sam might be able to throw it further in the pocket with his feet set perfectly, but I think even that would be a toss-up. Zip and release are more important to me than distance. And it's clear that Baker has the edge in those two categories.

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Except the 3 cone, height, weight, and zero off the field concerns, let alone a leadership style and attitude that I prefer.

You can make that argument I guess. You want a prototype QB. I get that. It's a personal preference.

 

Oh, and I'm not hating on Darnold. I've made it clear I probably would have taken Sam #1 instead of Baker, but people are overselling Sam and underselling Baker. The more I watched of Darnold the less impressed I became as the process went along. I kept thinking that he was some slam-dunk prospect, but the tape showed me he has a lot of flaws and not quite the physical upside that some people thought. Again, nobody dethroned him as my QB1, but they were nipping right at his heels. I have no problem with Baker going ahead of Darnold, as the difference in the top QB's to me was negligible. Sam might have the most prototypical traits, but he wasn't some perfect prospect.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

19 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Kessler was Top 5 on that list as well. That doesn't mean that I want him as my Franchise QB.

Kessler was top 5 in PFF’s list, but they’ve only been grading since 2014.  I’d argue he looked decent when playing in an offense that suited his talents, but that’s another discussion.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-rating-player-season.html

That’s what acdc is referencing.

Quote

I don't care at all for his leadership style or attitude. He's the exact opposite of what I look for in a QB in that regard. I'd prefer someone with a calm, cool, stone cold demeanor as opposed to brash, arrogant, and toolbag.

But you’d have to agree that either can be effective.

Quote

Like I said earlier, the mental is what I have no idea about (or any other QB for that matter) as I'm not a pre-snap savant when it comes to analyzing QBs, or how scheme dependent teams/systems are for their QBs.

 

True, and this is such a huge portion of it. Time will tell...

[BleedTheClock]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Perhaps. I'd also be willing to bet that at no point in their career Tom Brady or Joe Montana could have hit anywhere close to that mark. Arm strength is a VERY nice indicator, especially coupled with accuracy, which Mayfield looks to have. That said, I'll take all of the back shoulder fades, deep comebacks, and 10-12 yard out routes on a frozen rope that I saw from Darnold the last two years over a gimmicky Air Raid passing tree that schemes dudes open for days/decades like it did with Bradford, Jason White, and Josh Heupel. It's not Baker's fault that he's in that system, but it's not a notch in his belt as a positive either.

Does it matter to you at all that he had far and away the best completion percentage of any QB in the country in terms of completion percentage in the following categories:

1. Period. Just the best completion percentage.

2. Under pressure.

3. When making tight-window throws.

 

Baker did have a lot of cheap completions, but it's not like that's all he was capable of doing. He made some big boy throws with guys draped all over him AND the WR's. And he did so deep down the field, not just on wimpy little slant routes.

 

It seems like you're just hating on the dude because you don't like his attitude. It's like your analysis of his on-field stuff has a conflicting interest because of his off-field stuff. I'm not sure why you're so convinced he's going to flop while Darnold ends up elite. I haven't seen many arguments that aren't hypocritical or flat-out wrong in regards to Baker in here. I'm happy to admit he's flawed. He's short and didn't run a traditional offense in college. But everything else that he does translates at a very high level. Other than running from the police. That was dumb, but I highly doubt this is going to become a habit for this kid. He's a smart dude that made a dumb decision when drunk. The on-field swag doesn't bother me one bit. I actually view it as a positive, as did our front office and 90% of other people under the age of 50.

[Mind Character]

"Sam Darnold doesn't make my pants tingle when he speaks... he's not the leader of men we need... and he doesn't have the hand size.... Baker Mayfield has 9, 6/8 hands...Darnold's hands worry me with the fumbles"                

-- John Dorsey

[BleedTheClock]

Not like I'm some God when it comes to football, but as a ridiculously unbalanced human being that breathes this stupid game more than any human probably should, I do pay attention to the schemes and the defenses these QB's are throwing against. For example, I hate when QB's play against zone coverage. It's so damn easy to get cheap completions and that's what they face 90% of the time in these spread offenses. I want to evaluate these guys when they're facing intense pressure from the rush and I want to see them complete passes against man coverage in small windows. Baker does this. He sees a ton of zone, but he also saw plenty of man coverage and was able to tear that up just as easily. He's got real accuracy that isn't inflated from that scheme like some might think. While he won't complete the same percentage in the NFL (nobody can), he's going to be one of the most accurate passers in the league the second he steps foot on the field for the first time.

It's the same reason I didn't lynch Josh Allen for his completion percentage. He saw a freakload of press man coverage because his WR's were bums and couldn't get separation against anyone. His hellish offensive scheme filled with vertical crossing concepts and deep out patterns, mimic what teams will do to try and beat press man coverage. And every throw Allen had to make was a tight window throw because his WR's were about as fast as my dead grandpa.

 

Context matters. I hated Deshaun Watson last year (looks like a mistake early on) because none of his tape showed him making these tight window throws. He saw almost exclusively zone coverage and teams were terrified to blitz him because of his running ability if he broke the pocket. It was very hard to find good tape of Watson doing NFL-translatable things. I didn't think any of the top QB's had that issue this year and I thought they were easier to evaluate than most year's QB crops.

[Mind Character]

"We passed on Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Saquon Barkley, and Bradley Chubb...  celebrate with joy and enthusiasm... we had a tremendous draft.... one that will change the franchise for the good finally..."

-- Baker Truther

[BleedTheClock]

1 minute ago, Mind Character said:

"Sam Darnold doesn't make my pants tingle when he speaks... he's not the leader of men we need... and he doesn't have the hand size.... Baker Mayfield has 9, 6/8 hands...Darnold's hands worry me with the fumbles"                

-- John Dorsey

Darnold's biggest problem is his obliviousness to pressure. He's not skittish in the pocket and can still deliver accurately down the field under pressure, but he has poor pocket instincts. He doesn't know when to naturally climb the pocket, boot out of the pocket, or shuffle laterally within the pocket. It's why I think he turns the ball over so much on strip sacks. His internal clock needs a lot of work. That can be fixed obviously, but it's the big-time concern I have with Darnold. He's got every ability to fix these things, but Baker clearly has pocket manipulation down to a science. He and Manziel are the two best I've ever seen in that regard. (no, he's not Manziel).

I don't think Darnold will have fumbling problems because of his "small hands." I think it's tied in way more with his obliviousness to any sort of pressure. Even frontside AB gap pressures. It's weird to watch sometimes.

[BleedTheClock]

2 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

"We passed on Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Saquon Barkley, and Bradley Chubb...  celebrate with joy and enthusiasm... we had a tremendous draft.... one that will change the franchise for the good finally..."

-- Baker Truther

I'm actually happy we passed on Chubb. I would have been salty as hell if we took him.

Again, I'm not happy we passed on any of the QB's, nor would it have upset me if we took ANY of the top 4 at #1. I think they're all going to be good. And if you wanted Saquon at #1, you are a moron (i know you didn't).

 

I think we did have a tremendous draft. I loved everything about it other than Chad Thomas, but he'll be productive as a situational pass rusher so even that isn't upsetting.

[buckeyesNut0623]

2 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Darnold's biggest problem is his obliviousness to pressure. He's not skittish in the pocket and can still deliver accurately down the field under pressure, but he has poor pocket instincts. He doesn't know when to naturally climb the pocket, boot out of the pocket, or shuffle laterally within the pocket. It's why I think he turns the ball over so much on strip sacks. His internal clock needs a lot of work. That can be fixed obviously, but it's the big-time concern I have with Darnold. He's got every ability to fix these things, but Baker clearly has pocket manipulation down to a science. He and Manziel are the two best I've ever seen in that regard. (no, he's not Manziel).

I don't think Darnold will have fumbling problems because of his "small hands." I think it's tied in way more with his obliviousness to any sort of pressure. Even frontside AB gap pressures. It's weird to watch sometimes.

I agree with this 100%, what makes Baker so great is partly because he can "sense" the pressure and react accordingly. Just my opinion 

[buckeyesNut0623]

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

I'm actually happy we passed on Chubb. I would have been salty as hell if we took him.

Again, I'm not happy we passed on any of the QB's, nor would it have upset me if we took ANY of the top 4 at #1. I think they're all going to be good. And if you wanted Saquon at #1, you are a moron (i know you didn't).

 

I think we did have a tremendous draft. I loved everything about it other than Chad Thomas, but he'll be productive as a situational pass rusher so even that isn't upsetting.

I also agree with this. RB's in the 1st round are not a good value, period. Its paying too much for a position that is devalued in today's NFL imo. 

[DizzyDean]

Why is this even a debate?  Literally, the only thing Darnold has on Baker is a couple of inches of height.

Baker is more accurate, stronger arm, better mechanics, more confident, more football savvy, has better leadership, it is literally across the board.