NateDawg Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 Leader of men, the pied piper, and he has moxie. This trumps traits such as the ability to make NFL throws. Oh, and ‘hehe.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 Just now, BleedTheClock said: Darnold's biggest problem is his obliviousness to pressure. He's not skittish in the pocket and can still deliver accurately down the field under pressure, but he has poor pocket instincts. He doesn't know when to naturally climb the pocket, boot out of the pocket, or shuffle laterally within the pocket. It's why I think he turns the ball over so much on strip sacks. His internal clock needs a lot of work. That can be fixed obviously, but it's the big-time concern I have with Darnold. He's got every ability to fix these things, but Baker clearly has pocket manipulation down to a science. He and Manziel are the two best I've ever seen in that regard. (no, he's not Manziel). I don't think Darnold will have fumbling problems because of his "small hands." I think it's tied in way more with his obliviousness to any sort of pressure. Even frontside AB gap pressures. It's weird to watch sometimes. We just don't see football the same... like the core of football as it pertains to Quarterback.... As I believe that the above analysis is not based in traditional scouting analysis of quarterbacking skills imo... Sam Darnold has the rarest and most elite pocket instincts of any QB to come out in the draft according to the vast vast majority of the scouting community.... Awareness, subtle movements, the instincts to move, etc... Darnold was under total duress this year... the oline was atrocious... against OSU he was hit 27 times; Baker was touched 5 times.... and it wasn't because one was just holing the ball too long. Baker is never touched or put under duress... the pocket is moved and slide by Lincoln Riley's scheme to create the optimum calm and peaceful first class cabinet flight experience... this creates passing lanes for Baker... The vast majority of people that watch more than 6 games of their's in the scouting community knows this... that's why Darnold was the consensus #1 QB for the very reason of his raw phenom quarterbacking instincts, pocket poise, pocket awareness, etc.... It's one thing to prefer Baker or think he's the guy... but to say Baker's better in the pocket to me discounts so many factors evident in the tape... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDean Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 Just now, NateDawg said: Leader of men, the pied piper, and he has moxie. This trumps traits such as the ability to make NFL throws. Oh, and ‘hehe.’ This would be a good point, except for the fact that Baker has a stronger arm than Darnold and that he can make every NFL throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 1 minute ago, NateDawg said: This trumps traits such as the ability to make NFL throws. Who thinks Baker can't make NFL throws? I hope it's not you, because now everyone will know you can't evaluate film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Darnold was under total duress this year... the oline was atrocious... against OSU he was hit 27 times; Baker was touched 5 times.... and it wasn't because one was just holing the ball too long. ummm it absolutely was because he held onto the ball too long. Darnold has a long winding delivery and as someone that was thinking "this is our future QB" during that OSU game, I was infuriated by Darnold's inability to realize when to get out of dodge or throw it away. He was responsible for most of those 27 hits. I was very annoyed at his performance in that game. Baker gets the ball out quickly all the time. There were only like 4-5x I saw on tape in 15+ game tapes where I thought, "damn, that sack/pressure is on Baker." There were more than 4-5x in the freaking OSU game alone that made me think, "damn, that sack/pressure is on Darnold." Sam's elongated delivery is a problem too. Baker keeps the ball up tight all the time where Sam brings it down until he's ready to release it. It causes a winding motion and leads to a lot of his strip sacks because he has the ball low. This is a fixable trait, but I think it's asinine to just blame the USC OL for all of those hits. Baker faced a ton of immediate pressure and either slithered out of trouble or got rid of the football. Darnold is a great athlete, but he got too comfortable in the pocket at times and I'm not sure how someone that watches tape could argue this as a flaw. I know he had a much crappier OL than any of the QB's not named Josh Allen. But Darnold was absolutely responsible for a large portion of those sacks. It's the main reason I started to sour on him along the process...but I didn't think it was a catastrophic unfixable trait by any means. It's something he's going to have to work on. I love that he sets up shop confidently in the pocket and doesn't scare easily in the face of pressure, but I absolutely dislike how much he trusted his OL to pass protect when it was blatantly obvious they couldn't get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 2 hours ago, MWil23 said: I never said that Baker didn't have a good arm. I said that I have seen others say that Darnold's arm is just as strong (or stronger), so that's not automatically a "win" for Baker when they're compared as was stated by Thomas. Yeah I never said that. I said Darnold didn't have a stronger arm. I was contesting your automatic wins for Darnold. Mayfield does have more zip which I think in all likelihood means he has a stronger arm but I just feel safe in saying Darnold's isn't stronger from what I've seen and know (which is very little because Darnold didn't throw at the combine). 3 hours ago, MWil23 said: He's shorter and weighs less. That means he's not as big. A bigger hit on his frame will do more damage. So lets go to an extreme to see if this is true. Would a 6'10 guy weighing 190 lbs be less susceptible to injury than a 5'10 190 lb man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: So lets go to an extreme to see if this is true. Would a 6'10 guy weighing 190 lbs be less susceptible to injury than a 5'10 190 lb man? Exactly this. The guys that get hurt have no meat on their bones and expose themselves to unnecessary hits. I don't think Darnold is in serious danger of getting hurt in the NFL, but it's hilarious that people think Baker is an injury risk but Darnold isn't. If you take play style and frames into consideration, Darnold is the most likely to have problems with this as he has an elongated release, a broken internal clock, and gives defenders a nice sitting target to hit by planting himself firmly in the pocket. Baker is constantly light on his feet and ready to escape forward, backward, left, or right depending on the situation. Plus Baker resets his feet beautifully after he moves off the spot at a level that none of the other QB's can even compare with. I'm not worried about Darnold getting hurt because he's not a frail dude. But I just find it ridiculous to assume a shorter more compact guy is more likely to get hurt than a taller guy that doesn't move as well or get the ball out as quickly. Neither is in any real danger of injury when looking at their frames. And to pick on Mayfield for it while excusing Darnold just seems like blind hatred to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonanza23 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 Yeah Darnold is one of the best in the pocket. His arm and Mayfields are darn near close. If you want to argue mayfield has slightly more zip fine, it’s not a big deal. Oh and I proved mathematically awhile ago that Mayfields frame is bigger by 0.05%. Again give me the guy that’s taller by 3”. But alas mayfield is our guy. I’m personally hoping that Baker is better than Darnold by a big amount because it’s going to be miserable in here if he isn’t. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said: Who thinks Baker can't make NFL throws? I hope it's not you, because now everyone will know you can't evaluate film. You really think Baker makes NFL throws more than Darnold? I’ve watched probably every throw that both guys made last year, and I’m not sure how anyone can come away with that belief. I’m hopeful and am trying to get on board with the pick. But I don’t see much debate on that one at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 54 minutes ago, Bonanza23 said: Yeah Darnold is one of the best in the pocket. His arm and Mayfields are darn near close. If you want to argue mayfield has slightly more zip fine, it’s not a big deal. Oh and I proved mathematically awhile ago that Mayfields frame is bigger by 0.05%. Again give me the guy that’s taller by 3”. But alas mayfield is our guy. I’m personally hoping that Baker is better than Darnold by a big amount because it’s going to be miserable in here if he isn’t. ? Yeah 6'3 3/8 is better than 6'0 5/8 but those saying that Baker's frame is smaller than Darnold's thus making him more likely to be injured because of it are just sending a false message. This isn't a who is closer to the ideal size debate we all know Sam wins that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 29 minutes ago, NateDawg said: You really think Baker makes NFL throws more than Darnold? I’ve watched probably every throw that both guys made last year, and I’m not sure how anyone can come away with that belief. I’m hopeful and am trying to get on board with the pick. But I don’t see much debate on that one at this point. Any throw in the NFL is an NFL throw. Tyrod Taylor doesn't make "NFL throws" if you only count tight window anticipatory throws as NFL throws. That is a very small percentage of the throws that make up NFL throws, most are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage and if the QB is good most are to a receiver that isn't tightly covered. Watch Drew Brees or Tom Brady play QB and the vast majority of their throws aren't "NFL throws" by some of these standards. Wasn't too long ago people were still calling Brady a game manager. People get way too excited about throws that happen a handful times per game, not saying Mayfield can't make them because the only thing stopping him is pulling the trigger but Darnold making so many of those throws is why he turned the ball over so much. It is good for bulk stats and chunk yardage but it isn't the way the majority of NFL offenses work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 @Thomas5737 @LETSGOBROWNIES @BleedTheClock I’ll happily respond to you guys tomorrow I just don’t have the time tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonanza23 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said: Yeah 6'3 3/8 is better than 6'0 5/8 but those saying that Baker's frame is smaller than Darnold's thus making him more likely to be injured because of it are just sending a false message. This isn't a who is closer to the ideal size debate we all know Sam wins that. Yeah that I agree with, he’s actually pretty well built for a midget. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, MWil23 said: @Thomas5737 @LETSGOBROWNIES @BleedTheClock I’ll happily respond to you guys tomorrow I just don’t have the time tonight. Nope, this conversation ends at midnight and if you don't respond to each of us by then you legally are saying we are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwibrown Posted May 9, 2018 Author Share Posted May 9, 2018 3 hours ago, NateDawg said: Leader of men, the pied piper, and he has moxie. This trumps traits such as the ability to make NFL throws. Oh, and ‘hehe.’ I can't wait for the Baker Mayefield musical to come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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