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Packers Off-season Mini-Camp/Training Camp Discussion Thread

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1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

So at what point is it too early to cut a player who you invested a relatively high pick in?  After they've been selected?  After their rookie season?  After their 2nd season?  If you're going to cut players after their rookie seasons when they play poorly, you're going to find out that a LOT of those decisions are going to look awful in hindsight.  If you want to argue  after their sophomore year, you'll probably find a bit more traction there.  But there's really no harm into bringing them into camp for that third year.

But here's an exercise for you.  Using the money saved by releasing Jason Spriggs (which for all intents and purposes is $0), find a better option.  You can't.  It's financially impossible.  That's why rookie contract are structured the way they are.  They're cheap roster fillers.  Not necessarily supposed to be All-Stars.

And if the New England model was so easily replicable, don't you think others would do it?  But let's look at your guys.  Easley was a guy who was a bit of a surprise 1st round pick because of his injury history, and was limited to just 22 games in his first two seasons.  He was released and signed with the Rams after his sophomore year.  That appears to be Rollins only he was given an extra year since he got hurt.  Aaron Dobson was a former 2nd round pick who spent 3 years with the Patriots before they released him.  I'd argue that he's in the same position as Spriggs currently is, only he doesn't have the benefit of playing a position that is historically short on bodies.

The funny thing is, even in his own example, 2 of the 3 players weren't cut until after yr-3 training camp. In fact, since 2005, of all the Belichick cuts of R1/2 draft picks, Easley is the only that was cut before yr-3 training camp. Meanwhile, over the same span, TT cut Murphy & Brohm before yr-2, which blows a huge hole in this stupid theory that TT gives any more chances to high picks of equivalent talent level than the average GM. 

He's also making the assumption that both teams have had the same number of busts worthy of cutting, which is not supported by anything. 

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13 minutes ago, craig said:

The question is whether to keep him after this 3rd camp.  I assume they will. 

  • 3 years or at least 3 camps is the normal cycle for any new guy, whether a high pick or a UDFA.  Redshirt development year; 2nd year to jump; 3rd year another chance to jump.
  • Does keeping Spriggs mean cutting Bell? 
  • Or do you keep both, and Spriggs is competing with Hundley, or Donnerson, or Waters/Pipken, or Looney, or Davis, or the last of EQ/Moore/Kumerow? 
  • ST is an issue with carrying 3 backup OT or 9 OL.  Bell and Spriggs aren't going to great ST guys, so keeping both at the expense of a guy who can play ST is a factor.  

I think 9 OL is normal. They sometimes go with 8 and if they have drafted two rookies with potential sometimes 10, but I think 9 OL is normal.

I think this is generally normal 2 QB, 3 RB, 1 FB, 3 TE, 6 WR,  9 OL and 1 wildcard (used to be 5 WRs and 2 wildcards).

Does any fan have Bell over Spriggs right now? ... seems most aren't that interested in Bell.

6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And that's why we're actually having this discussion regarding Jason Spriggs now as opposed to a year ago.  3 years is the general rule of thumb.  If they're really bad, they don't make it into their 3rd season but if they believe he's gong to make that jump than he'll stick.  I do think Spriggs and Bell could be competing for that same spot.  I think if they opt to keep 9 OL, that could keep both Bell and Spriggs on the roster.

Yeah but Spriggs is also coming off a broke knee cap during the offseason and MM has said that injury is still effecting him. Someone claimed broken knee caps take a year to fully heal. OL coach said he put on extra weight and it'll take another week or two for him to adjust. And some guys like Jordy Nelson struggled until half way through his 3rd year.

Will Spriggs ever develop? I doubt it... but I've doubted it since before the Packers even drafted him (he was a 4 year starter that barely developed or grew, so I thought he had problems developing). But do we have 9 better OL options? If so, then cut him... if not then let him keep working and hopefully he heals up and breaks out.

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3 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

If a player demonstrates he can't play it should not matter that he was a high pick and is still on his rookie deal, he should be shown the door.

Now, I do agree that under the prior GM, someone like Rollins would stand an excellent chance of making the 2018 roster -- not because Rollins deserves a spot but rather because he was a 2nd round pick and is still on a rookie contract.

If you want to praise the prior GM for emphasizing draft status over on the field production go right ahead but that is not what the best team in the NFL does. 

Instead, in New England, Belichik has no problem getting rid of his high draft pick mistakes early in their careers - e.g. Dominique Easley, Aaron Dobson, Ras-I-Dowling. 

I'm confident Gute has taken note of how the best in the business operates.

Yea then I guess Gute should fire himself and give GM responsibilities to McCarthy. and McCarthy should start wearing a hoodie all the time. 

Just because NE has trophies doesn't mean they are the best at every individual thing they do. Just that the sum total is better. Your argument is like saying Golden State is the best team at rebounding because championships. How do you know it's not just a case of Belichick being a superior enough coach to overcome other things? No way to show that.

Which high picks do you think TT should have cut earlier, and who he should have used the resulting chump-change to bring in for that roster spot to make this huge difference? Which high picks do you think Belichick should have cut earlier?

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Keep in mind that ST value doesn't just mean gunners. They need line bodies for FGs, and FB/LB/TE bodies for KO/KOR and P/PR blocking/coverage.

I haven't tracked ST lineups since 2015 but here was an example of what the composition of the units was:

KO:
Rollins/Clinton-Dix/Ripkowski/Banjo/Ryan/Richardson/Elliott/Goodson/Shields/Janis
Crosby

KR:
Banjo/Ryan/Palmer/Starks/Elliott/Richardson
Kuhn
R.Rodgers/Tretter/Ripkowski
Montgomery

Onside Receive:
Quarless/Ryan/Tretter/Palmer/Kuhn // Richardson/Ripkowski/Elliott
Adams // R.Rodgers
Hyde

P:
Goodson // Richardson/Palmer/Quarless/Goode/R.Rodgers/Elliott/Clinton-Dix // Janis
Banjo
Masthay

FG:
Sitton/Bulaga/Barclay/Raji/Goode/Tretter/Lang/Walker/Daniels
Masthay
Crosby

FGD:
Shields/Hyde/Elliott/Peppers/Daniels/Raji/Neal/Matthews/Clinton-Dix/Hayward
Palmer

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6 hours ago, TransientTexan said:

Meanwhile, over the same span, TT cut Murphy & Brohm before yr-2, which blows a huge hole in this stupid theory that TT gives any more chances to high picks of equivalent talent level than the average GM. re

The reference above to "TT cut Murphy ... before yr-2", appears to assert that (A) the previous GM "cut" former Packer 2nd round pick Terrence Murphy prior to his second season in Green Bay and (B) this decision to "cut" Murphy constitutes evidence that the previous GM was more than willing to move on from his high draft picks who did not merit spots on the roster.

These assertions are demonstrably untrue.

Terrence Murphy was diagnosed with spinal stenosis after taking a vicious hit from Thomas Davis in his rookie season.

The undisputed record reveals that the former GM did not cut Murphy but rather that he was forced to retire from the NFL after just one season for medical reasons.

If one wants to believe that the Packers' previous GM was not more patient with respect to waiting for the players he selected relatively high in the draft to develop than Bill Belichik has been, he or she is certainly entitled to that opinion.

But no one is entitled to make up facts to support their opinions. 

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7 hours ago, CWood21 said:

We keep hearing about how TT whiffed on guys like Khryi Thornton, Kyler Fackrell, etc., yet you won't hear a peep about how Belichick whiffed on a LOT of his draft picks.  Now, he's praising him for realizing his mistakes and moving on from them.  But I guarantee you that you won't hear him speak a peep about that in favor of TT.

False.

I just said above that Belichik whiffed on a number of draft picks -- I even provided their names. Heck, BB may have even whiffed on a higher % of picks than your favorite former Packer GM.

The key difference between Belichik and the Pack's previous GM is what occured in response to their drafting whiffs, however.

For example, in NE Belichik signed all kinds of veterans from other teams to plug roster holes caused by his poor drafting -- including big-timers like Revis and many, many role players. 

Belichik also made more trades involving players than any other GM in the NFL over the past several years in order to overcome his drafting mistakes.

Meanwhile in Green Bay, the former GM was proud of his open disdain for veteran free agency and did not make a single trade involving a player of note over the last decade of his tenure. In other words, when he whiffed on draft picks those picks either remained on the roster or they were replaced by undrafted or street free agents. 

Gotta figure the Packers organization took a look at these contrasting approaches (and contrasting results) over the past 7 years when they decided to move on from your guy.

 

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Man, JK Scott is a weapon. That 52 yard punt in the 3rd was absolutely beautiful.

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1 hour ago, TheOnlyThing said:

False.

I just said above that Belichik whiffed on a number of draft picks -- I even provided their names. Heck, BB may have even whiffed on a higher % of picks than your favorite former Packer GM.

The key difference between Belichik and the Pack's previous GM is what occured in response to their drafting whiffs, however.

For example, in NE Belichik signed all kinds of veterans from other teams to plug roster holes caused by his poor drafting -- including big-timers like Revis and many, many role players. 

Belichik also made more trades involving players than any other GM in the NFL over the past several years in order to overcome his drafting mistakes.

Meanwhile in Green Bay, the former GM was proud of his open disdain for veteran free agency and did not make a single trade involving a player of note over the last decade of his tenure. In other words, when he whiffed on draft picks those picks either remained on the roster or they were replaced by undrafted or street free agents. 

Gotta figure the Packers organization took a look at these contrasting approaches (and contrasting results) over the past 7 years when they decided to move on from your guy.

First off, you can leave off the "your guy" comments.  It's completely off base, and something that really doesn't support your argument in the slightest.  I think even the strong TT supporter would argue that he wasn't a flawless GM, something I don't even think you'd claim that Belichick is for the Patriots.  What I (and others) do argue is that his drafting record stands up as well as anyone as long as he was the GM.  I (and others) challenged you to look at his draft success since he was the GM, and not just cherry picking the years to fit your argument.  And no, you haven't held the Belichick whiffs against him nearly as hard as TT.  Not in the slightest.

Again, I think even the most ardent supporter of TT would admit that his lack of activity in FA hampered him.  If you're going to ignore that avenue as FA, you need to draft at a higher rate than the league average in order to keep sustained success.

Let's look at this objectively about trades.  Players on reasonable contracts don't come available through trade, and they don't get moved for reasonable packages.  They're usually going to cost a fortune.  So you're essentially looking at a market of overpaid players who are in jeopardy of getting released or are guys that are no longer wanted.  The notion that this is the NBA or MLB where there are reasonable deals to be had.  There's a reason why the NFL lags far behind the NBA and MLB in terms of player trades.  Most are usually nothing more than a conditional late round pick.  If you want to take a look at the anomaly and paint that as the norm, go right ahead.  You're wrong, but feel free to think otherwise.

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4 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Man, JK Scott is a weapon. That 52 yard punt in the 3rd was absolutely beautiful.

Nice to finally have a GM that will bring in a Playmaker

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4 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Again, I think even the most ardent supporter of TT would admit that his lack of activity in FA hampered him.  If you're going to ignore that avenue as FA, you need to draft at a higher rate than the league average in order to keep sustained success.

Good observation.

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12 hours ago, Cakeshoppe said:

Keep in mind that ST value doesn't just mean gunners. They need line bodies for FGs, and FB/LB/TE bodies for KO/KOR and P/PR blocking/coverage.

I haven't tracked ST lineups since 2015 but here was an example of what the composition of the units was:

KO:
Rollins/Clinton-Dix/Ripkowski/Banjo/Ryan/Richardson/Elliott/Goodson/Shields/Janis
Crosby

KR:
Banjo/Ryan/Palmer/Starks/Elliott/Richardson
Kuhn
R.Rodgers/Tretter/Ripkowski
Montgomery

Onside Receive:
Quarless/Ryan/Tretter/Palmer/Kuhn // Richardson/Ripkowski/Elliott
Adams // R.Rodgers
Hyde

P:
Goodson // Richardson/Palmer/Quarless/Goode/R.Rodgers/Elliott/Clinton-Dix // Janis
Banjo
Masthay

FG:
Sitton/Bulaga/Barclay/Raji/Goode/Tretter/Lang/Walker/Daniels
Masthay
Crosby

FGD:
Shields/Hyde/Elliott/Peppers/Daniels/Raji/Neal/Matthews/Clinton-Dix/Hayward
Palmer

Thanks, Cakes.  I really appreciate this.  As you say, I tend to think about the gunner types, but haven't really known how many bigger slower guys there are.  So this is VERY helpful, at least to me!  :)

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4 minutes ago, craig said:

Thanks, Cakes.  I really appreciate this.  As you say, I tend to think about the gunner types, but haven't really known how many bigger slower guys there are.  So this is VERY helpful, at least to me!  :)

Here's what I've been able to piece together from highlights of thursday's game: (Positions are approximate except FG and FGD, and numbers are sometimes hard to read so probably not 100% accurate)

P:

81/21/51/56/35/43/45/39/59/34/

6

FGD:
37/27/93/94/90/97/73/51/35/31
42

FG:
84/77/68/64/x/x/70/78/55
6
2

KO:

41/36/45/58/42/6/91/46/59/1/28
 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cakeshoppe said:

Here's what I've been able to piece together from highlights of thursday's game: (Positions are approximate except FG and FGD, and numbers are sometimes hard to read so probably not 100% accurate)

Thank you very much for that, I've been waiting for the media writers to post it and I'm surprised they haven't (or they did on twitter and I'm just not watching.

Based on the players, the only numbers I'm questing are 21 FS Clinton-Dix and 97 NT Clark, as they're the only starters on this list and I'm not even 100% they dressed for the first preseason game. The rest looks as expected... one of the two guys you're missing on the FG unit is one of the long snappers (43 or 57) in case you wanted to know.

I converted the numbers over to players.

Punting   WR Allison    FS Clinton Dix    OLB Fackrell    ILB Thomas    FS Whitehead    LS Bradley    OLB Biegel    CB Goodson    ILB Porter    RB Bouagnon    P Scott

 

FG Def    CB Jackson    SS Jones    OLB Gilbert    DL Lowry    DT Adams    DL Clark    NT Mbu    OLB Fackrell    FS Whitehead    CB House    ILB Burks

 

FG    TE Kendricks    OT Pankey    T Murphy    G McCray        LS (43 or 57)  ????  OT Light    OT Spriggs    C Day    P Scott    K Crosby

 

KO    CB Pipkins    RB Judd    OLB Biegel    ILB Martini    ILB Burks    P Scott    OLB Donnerson    LB Naashon Hughes    ILB Porter    WR Kyle Lewis    CB Hawkins

There have been lots of reporting that ILB Martini has been on the #1 KO united, but really looks like they're trying more of the ILBers on the ST units. Also note the speed LBs Burks and Donnerson are next to the punter.

 

Edited by Beast
I didn't mean to submit it, when it first submitted

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1 hour ago, Beast said:

Thank you very much for that, I've been waiting for the media writers to post it and I'm surprised they haven't (or they did on twitter and I'm just not watching.

Based on the players, the only numbers I'm questing are 21 FS Clinton-Dix and 97 NT Clark, as they're the only starters on this list and I'm not even 100% they dressed for the first preseason game. The rest looks as expected... one of the two guys you're missing on the FG unit is one of the long snappers (43 or 57) in case you wanted to know.

I converted the numbers over to players.

Punting   WR Allison    FS Clinton Dix    OLB Fackrell    ILB Thomas    FS Whitehead    LS Bradley    OLB Biegel    CB Goodson    ILB Porter    RB Bouagnon    P Scott

 

FG Def    CB Jackson    SS Jones    OLB Gilbert    DL Lowry    DT Adams    DL Clark    NT Mbu    OLB Fackrell    FS Whitehead    CB House    ILB Burks

 

FG    TE Kendricks    OT Pankey    T Murphy    G McCray        LS (43 or 57)  ????  OT Light    OT Spriggs    C Day    P Scott    K Crosby

 

KO    CB Pipkins    RB Judd    OLB Biegel    ILB Martini    ILB Burks    P Scott    OLB Donnerson    LB Naashon Hughes    ILB Porter    WR Kyle Lewis    CB Hawkins

There have been lots of reporting that ILB Martini has been on the #1 KO united, but really looks like they're trying more of the ILBers on the ST units. Also note the speed LBs Burks and Donnerson are next to the punter.

 

I should mention punt team is completely out of order. The footage I found started after the snap. Gunners should be correct. I know the team has put starters on FG teams in the past

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