tyler735 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said: One thing that will forever worry me is his build. RGIII was demolished in this league and was considerably bigger. He has a frame similar to Teddy who caused Vikings fans to hold their breath every time he took a hit, and he wasn't even a running QB. In reality his closest comparison in terms of frame is Vick, who also missed time with injury. He doesn't just need to learn how to not take hits in the NFL like Russ, he needs to also bulk consiterably. Russ is 5'11 and 215-220lbs. Lamar is 6'3 and 210-212lbs. He needs to get up to a functional 225lbs at least IMHO if he wants to run and take hits, because he will take hits even if he learns to duck and dodge like Russ. He is a prime candidate to sit as a rookie and just bulk, bulk, bulk. For that reason I hope he ends up on a team with a capable bridge QB, I just don't really see that team looking at QB situations. In reality, his talents would fit the Shanny offense extremely well in SF, but as I said , IMO he needs to sit a year. But yeah, SF is the best place for him to land honestly. This is silly. Way to much weight is being placed on Jackson's size. However just for argument sake, Russell Wilson was 204lbs when he came into the league, so this pretty much blows your whole argument up. Wilson was on the older side for a rookie when he came into the NFL. I believe he turned 24 during his rookie season. Jackson will be a fairly young rookie. If he declares for the draft after this season he will be a 21 year old rookie. I'd say it's likely he naturally gets a little bigger in the next couple years. Regarding Bridgewater. He was certainly a running/scrambling QB with the Vikings. Largely due to poor Oline play. I don't recall him ever getting hurt during a game. He had a severe noncontact injury, but that obviously has nothing to do with a lack of "bulk" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 25 minutes ago, tyler735 said: This is silly. Way to much weight is being placed on Jackson's size. However just for argument sake, Russell Wilson was 204lbs when he came into the league, so this pretty much blows your whole argument up. Wilson was on the older side for a rookie when he came into the NFL. I believe he turned 24 during his rookie season. Jackson will be a fairly young rookie. If he declares for the draft after this season he will be a 21 year old rookie. I'd say it's likely he naturally gets a little bigger in the next couple years. Regarding Bridgewater. He was certainly a running/scrambling QB with the Vikings. Largely due to poor Oline play. I don't recall him ever getting hurt during a game. He had a severe noncontact injury, but that obviously has nothing to do with a lack of "bulk" Pun intended? I tend to agree with the idea that a quarterback's build does matter in the NFL. Quarterbacks, unlike receivers and runningbacks, are subject to "defenseless" hits in the pocket which tend to increase injury risk. Further, running QBs (even well built ones) suffer debilitating injuries because of their play style. Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, and even Andrew Luck have all endured injuries which stunted their team's competitive chances over the past two seasons. Also, athlete density is something to take into account. Wilson was 204 lbs. as a rookie, but also around 5" shorter than Jackson. Sometime's it's not just weight but how the athlete is built, too. Like RGIII, Lamar Jackson is very lean. RGIII bulked up to around 220 lbs. (although there's reason to believe he played significantly lighter during his career) for the combine but still got hurt routinely in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraftHobbyist Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 4 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said: One thing that will forever worry me is his build. RGIII was demolished in this league and was considerably bigger. He has a frame similar to Teddy who caused Vikings fans to hold their breath every time he took a hit, and he wasn't even a running QB. In reality his closest comparison in terms of frame is Vick, who also missed time with injury. He doesn't just need to learn how to not take hits in the NFL like Russ, he needs to also bulk consiterably. Russ is 5'11 and 215-220lbs. Lamar is 6'3 and 210-212lbs. He needs to get up to a functional 225lbs at least IMHO if he wants to run and take hits, because he will take hits even if he learns to duck and dodge like Russ. He is a prime candidate to sit as a rookie and just bulk, bulk, bulk. For that reason I hope he ends up on a team with a capable bridge QB, I just don't really see that team looking at QB situations. In reality, his talents would fit the Shanny offense extremely well in SF, but as I said , IMO he needs to sit a year. But yeah, SF is the best place for him to land honestly. I question whether Jackson has the frame to bulk up like you want him to. He can throw the ball with some zip showing that he has strength, but he isn't big. Some guys are just naturally smaller. Maybe if he starts using PED's or something, but then that creates other problems. I'm very worried about Jackson's health at the next level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Quote This is silly. Way to much weight is being placed on Jackson's size. Based on the injury history of past running QB's around the same size as Jackson, I would argue that you cant place enough emphasis on his size. He has a smaller frame, and that is worrisome. You seem to be staunchly in his camp but to claim that his size isn't worrisome, when all past indications show running QB's with slight frames get beat up in this league, seems a bit over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraftHobbyist Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 I've been thinking about Deondre Francois recently, and just watched his 2016 Florida game. He needs to develop parts of his game such as reading Defenses, consistency, etc., but his actual mechanics throwing the football look quite good to me. I think people are assuming that he will go back to school, and he probably would, but what if he goes back and gets hurt again? The more a guy gets injured, the more risk he adds to his stock. He doesn't have the production, but his injury came early so he has time to get healthy again, although he will be out for the season. We'll have to see how the competition plays and how his backup plays (who is supposed to be a talented QB), but I think some teams would take a risk on Francois pretty highly if he came out, and so maybe we shouldn't assume he's going back to school, especially if he is graded highly for the Draft. What round do you guys think he would be taken around if he does choose to come out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said: Based on the injury history of past running QB's around the same size as Jackson, I would argue that you cant place enough emphasis on his size. He has a smaller frame, and that is worrisome. You seem to be staunchly in his camp but to claim that his size isn't worrisome, when all past indications show running QB's with slight frames get beat up in this league, seems a bit over the top. Could it be an issue in the NFL? Yes. Is it going to be much of an influence in my ranking for him as a prospect? No. As I've mentioned Russell Wilson is currently showing that he is fine in the NFL at a smaller size. Jackson is likely to grow from the 210lbs or so that he is currently as he is 20 years old still. The talent far outweighs the risk in my eyes as I think he is the most talented QB in the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 4 hours ago, tyler735 said: Could it be an issue in the NFL? Yes. Is it going to be much of an influence in my ranking for him as a prospect? No. As I've mentioned Russell Wilson is currently showing that he is fine in the NFL at a smaller size. Jackson is likely to grow from the 210lbs or so that he is currently as he is 20 years old still. The talent far outweighs the risk in my eyes as I think he is the most talented QB in the nation. Read my post above (2nd from the top). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraftHobbyist Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 I watched the Quinton Flowers vs San Jose St DB video recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uZPO-3cHso I'm not a huge fan of what I saw. First, a lot of his passes are wobbly, which makes a pass harder to catch for the receiver, hurts the velocity of the ball, and allows the ball to be caught in wind much more easily. Second, his downfield passes are nothing more than lobs, so that doesn't translate to the next level. Third, he doesn't have very good poise from what I saw (I do need to see more, but look at the play :28 in). Fourth, most of his good plays are running plays. Fifth, he doesn't fair well passing when he plays good teams (So vs Top 25 - #14 FL ST (L) 12/24 125 yds, 2 TD, 1 INT; #18 Navy (L) 12/20 208 yds, 0 TD, 0 INT; #24 W KY (L) 14/32 273 yds 1 TD, 0 INT;;; Jr vs Top 25 - #10 FL ST (L) 5/14; 160 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT; #23 Temple (L) 11/19 187 yds, 2 TD, 0 INT). He has played San Jose St and Stonybrook so far this year and has a completion rate of 55.6%. Sixth, he needs work mechanically, having a pretty big wind-up. His footwork needs a lot of work as well, as he doesn't step through the throw. He needs a complete revamp of his throwing mechanics from arm to foot. He does bounce balls (check 5:15) on shorter throws. Remember when Kizer got killed for that? I'm not sure how often he does it yet, just mentioning I saw it. Intermediate-Deep misses are usually high from what I've seen. IMO, there's a lot not to like, and I have serious questions about if he's even draftable as a QB. I'd be interested in seeing him at another position, such as RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 19 hours ago, DraftHobbyist said: what if he goes back and gets hurt again? Then he stays for his senior year...he has 2 years of eligibility left. He would be an idiot if he left for the draft without having played any games that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 5 hours ago, DraftHobbyist said: I watched the Quinton Flowers vs San Jose St DB video recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uZPO-3cHso I'm not a huge fan of what I saw. First, a lot of his passes are wobbly, which makes a pass harder to catch for the receiver, hurts the velocity of the ball, and allows the ball to be caught in wind much more easily. Second, his downfield passes are nothing more than lobs, so that doesn't translate to the next level. Third, he doesn't have very good poise from what I saw (I do need to see more, but look at the play :28 in). Fourth, most of his good plays are running plays. Fifth, he doesn't fair well passing when he plays good teams (So vs Top 25 - #14 FL ST (L) 12/24 125 yds, 2 TD, 1 INT; #18 Navy (L) 12/20 208 yds, 0 TD, 0 INT; #24 W KY (L) 14/32 273 yds 1 TD, 0 INT;;; Jr vs Top 25 - #10 FL ST (L) 5/14; 160 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT; #23 Temple (L) 11/19 187 yds, 2 TD, 0 INT). He has played San Jose St and Stonybrook so far this year and has a completion rate of 55.6%. Sixth, he needs work mechanically, having a pretty big wind-up. His footwork needs a lot of work as well, as he doesn't step through the throw. He needs a complete revamp of his throwing mechanics from arm to foot. He does bounce balls (check 5:15) on shorter throws. Remember when Kizer got killed for that? I'm not sure how often he does it yet, just mentioning I saw it. Intermediate-Deep misses are usually high from what I've seen. IMO, there's a lot not to like, and I have serious questions about if he's even draftable as a QB. I'd be interested in seeing him at another position, such as RB. He's Braxton Miller all over again. I just hope the hype doesn't get out of hand like it did with Braxton Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 On 9/15/2017 at 9:27 AM, tyler735 said: This is silly. Way to much weight is being placed on Jackson's size. However just for argument sake, Russell Wilson was 204lbs when he came into the league, so this pretty much blows your whole argument up. Wilson was on the older side for a rookie when he came into the NFL. I believe he turned 24 during his rookie season. Jackson will be a fairly young rookie. If he declares for the draft after this season he will be a 21 year old rookie. I'd say it's likely he naturally gets a little bigger in the next couple years. Regarding Bridgewater. He was certainly a running/scrambling QB with the Vikings. Largely due to poor Oline play. I don't recall him ever getting hurt during a game. He had a severe noncontact injury, but that obviously has nothing to do with a lack of "bulk" It's also a build question. When Russell Wilson entered, the league he was 5'11", 203 lbs. According to the Louisville website, Lamar Jackson is 6'3", 211. The extra 4+ inches that Lamar Jackson has over Russell Wilson is mitigated by the fact that he's not much bigger. It's an issue that needs to be noted, but it shouldn't be the nail in the coffin by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 28 minutes ago, CWood21 said: It's also a build question. When Russell Wilson entered, the league he was 5'11", 203 lbs. According to the Louisville website, Lamar Jackson is 6'3", 211. The extra 4+ inches that Lamar Jackson has over Russell Wilson is mitigated by the fact that he's not much bigger. It's an issue that needs to be noted, but it shouldn't be the nail in the coffin by any means. Russell Wilson was almost 3 years older when he came into the league if Jackson is around 220lbs in the next year or 2 he's right around the same size as guys like Brett Favre (who was somewhat durable if memory serves me right), Aaron Rodgers, and Steve Young who was 6'2" 215lbs in the NFL. He made a pretty good career being a running QB. In a time when QBs weren't protected like they currently are. Randall Cunningham also had success in a time when QBs got more frequently hit. Cunningham was even taller and lankier than Jackson as he was 6'4" 212lbs. Also 4+ inches likely won't be accurate between Jackson and Wilson. How many times do we see a guy listed at a certain height get slightly rounded up by an inch or so vy the school website. It will likely be about a 3 inch difference. Regardless I'm pretty set in my stance on this. Injuries have yet to be a concern for Jackson. There have been other guys that have been similar size and even smaller succeed in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 Good test for Nick Fitzgerald and Riley Ferguson today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 Injury is a concern for any running QB in the NFL - regardless of size or build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe56 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 Mason Rudolph looks really good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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