IDOG_det Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I was clearly exaggerating when I said 100lbs @Jlash that was pretty clear. Not sure how you can start this discussion talking about weak argument points and then use the most strawman of strawman fallacies. No one is making excuses. I laid out the reasons very specifically as to why his production was down. Regardless of his production he's a great player and a great talent. But, if you care to know why the production was lower there are legitimate reasons. You can ignore those reasons if you want, not sure why you would, but you do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: Jordan Howard got injured and is mostly why he dropped in the draft, still showed great production and running ability in college. Ballage never has taken that next step similar to James Wilder Jr on FSU a few years back. Really impressive at times, such a big strong athletic kid but obviously lacked some toughness and natural running ability and Ballage might be the same way. Same with Karlos Williams as well, still pissed about him not playing defense but whatever. Really athletic kid, could make big plays but was never a natural running back and was not consistent. James Wilder was the guy that should have been playing defense for FSU. He was a stud in high school and his dad was a stud OLB in the NFL IIRC. I thought Wilder was going to be a good RB in the NFL regardless though. Fell hard on that prediction. That being said, as much as I liked Wilder, Ballage is way faster than him. Ballage is very fast in a straight line. He just looks slow laterally and doesn't appear natural at finding holes and cutting into open space. I still like me some downhill runners though and expect Ballage to become a starting RB for someone. He's just not David Johnson level good IMO. Plus, Wilder couldn't catch a pass if his life depended on it. Ballage is an elite receiving threat. I don't think Ballage is soft. He'll run through guys...he just is a little indecisive at the line and doesn't always accelerate upon getting the football. Sometimes patience kills you. He's not LeVeon Bell. Bell can be patient because he has a fantastic OL and he has great short area quickness and elusiveness. Ballage doesn't possess the same traits and is too often caught with his pants down and his legs in cement around or behind the LOS. Ballage is violent in space but not in a phone booth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 43 minutes ago, IDOG_det said: I was clearly exaggerating when I said 100lbs @Jlash that was pretty clear. Not sure how you can start this discussion talking about weak argument points and then use the most strawman of strawman fallacies. No one is making excuses. I laid out the reasons very specifically as to why his production was down. Regardless of his production he's a great player and a great talent. But, if you care to know why the production was lower there are legitimate reasons. You can ignore those reasons if you want, not sure why you would, but you do you. Don't try to save face now IDOG. We all know you were literally talking about a 100 pound RB. If you did any research, you would know there are no players under 150 pounds in the NFL though. Just goes to show you have no idea what you're talking about. Ballage poops in Richard's face as a draft prospect. I don't think poor coaching was the reason Richard was their short yardage back though. Richard was more decisive and a better phone booth runner. Made sense for short yardage situations. Ballage is not soft. He's just raw as an interior runningback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownLeader Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 9 hours ago, IDOG_det said: I mean he's clearly better than Demario Richard. He was clearly the best player on that offense. They didn't know how to use him (which is mind blowing) and that was a significant reason behind why they got fired. You can call it a weak counterpoint, it doesn't matter. The reality is that he was improperly used and blaming him for that misuse is ridiculous. Saying he isn't physical is blatantly false. Saying he has bad vision is a mischaracterization of him trying to find yards behind a poor offensive line in an even worse scheme. Look at what he was able to do in an environment that wasn't a joke at the Senior Bowl. He didn't lose playing time to Demario Richard because he wasn't physical enough, or because he wasn't running to the right holes, or because he isn't as good. He simply lost playing time to him because the people in charge of deciding who got how much playing time were morons. And it isn't a coincidence that those same decision makers got fired in favor of an ESPN TV character that is so outdated that he didn't know jerseys were made to fit tight. N'Keal Henry was the best player on that offense. Ballage was a 6'2 220lb 3rd down back. He lost playing time in part because Richard was just more productive....that was clear enough watching their games. I'd also like to say it was just poor coaching..idk, I hope your right. He looked great senior week. But I'm cautious now after being so high on him at the start of the season. 1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said: Ballage is not soft. He's just raw as an interior runningback. I think it's tied to his body lean. When he gets a head of steam, he finishes his runs because he's big and he's building momentum. But if he can't open up he's high and lacks balance. Pair that with questionable vision...and you've got an underpeforming RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I see a lot of Latavius Murray in Ballage as a runner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlash Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 10 hours ago, IDOG_det said: I was clearly exaggerating when I said 100lbs @Jlash that was pretty clear. Not sure how you can start this discussion talking about weak argument points and then use the most strawman of strawman fallacies. You then compared Richards play style to that of a 5'8 190 lb running back, when Richard really doesn't weigh that much less than Ballage does. So to say "the system was built for tiny guys to thrive" doesn't add up since Richard isn't a tiny guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, Jlash said: You then compared Richards play style to that of a 5'8 190 lb running back, when Richard really doesn't weigh that much less than Ballage does. So to say "the system was built for tiny guys to thrive" doesn't add up since Richard isn't a tiny guy. He's 5'8". He's small. His skill set is that of a small RB. What. Don't. You. Get. I don't care if he's listed at 220, I don't really believe it and it's really not relevant to anything I was arguing. I wasn't arguing about the weight, I was arguing about the skill set. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlash Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 27 minutes ago, IDOG_det said: He's 5'8". He's small. His skill set is that of a small RB. What. Don't. You. Get. I don't care if he's listed at 220, I don't really believe it and it's really not relevant to anything I was arguing. I wasn't arguing about the weight, I was arguing about the skill set. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy Stop with the strawman stuff, let's just have an actual discussion. I don't really see him anywhere listed under 5'10. 5'10 220 is a good sized RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 13 minutes ago, Jlash said: Stop with the strawman stuff, let's just have an actual discussion. I don't really see him anywhere listed under 5'10. 5'10 220 is a good sized RB. Lets have an actual discussion when we get back to discussing what I'm actually talking about. If you want to debate how Richard is listed at different sizes at on different websites then you can discuss that with someone else. You're wasting my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSURacerDT55 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 9 hours ago, jrry32 said: I see a lot of Latavius Murray in Ballage as a runner. I think Ballage has way more quick twitch/suddenness to him, Murray is a build up runner IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said: I think Ballage has way more quick twitch/suddenness to him, Murray is a build up runner IMO. Also completely different levels of ability in the passing game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlash Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 34 minutes ago, IDOG_det said: Lets have an actual discussion when we get back to discussing what I'm actually talking about. If you want to debate how Richard is listed at different sizes at on different websites then you can discuss that with someone else. You're wasting my time. I mean....you brought size up, incorrectly so at that. But that's fine. You're very high on Ballage as a prospect, and to you his college production or lack thereof was solely (or at least very largely) the fault of the coaching staff. Most people reading through this without rose colored glasses are within their right to question flaws in his game as a reason as well. Maybe in a couple years we can both come back to @BleedTheClock's "what have you learned" thread and be able to contribute from this one. I won't waste any more of your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 38 minutes ago, IDOG_det said: Also completely different levels of ability in the passing game Ballage looks natural running routes and catching the football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 23 minutes ago, Jlash said: I mean....you brought size up, incorrectly so at that. But that's fine. You're very high on Ballage as a prospect, and to you his college production or lack thereof was solely (or at least very largely) the fault of the coaching staff. Most people reading through this without rose colored glasses are within their right to question flaws in his game as a reason as well. Maybe in a couple years we can both come back to @BleedTheClock's "what have you learned" thread and be able to contribute from this one. I won't waste any more of your time. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownLeader Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 3 hours ago, IDOG_det said: He's 5'8". He's small. His skill set is that of a small RB. What. Don't. You. Get. I don't care if he's listed at 220, I don't really believe it and it's really not relevant to anything I was arguing. I wasn't arguing about the weight, I was arguing about the skill set. Ballage is actually the one with the skill set of a "small RB." Richard had better power and balance, whatever his actually height was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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