Update: Urban Meyer suspended 3 games

[thrILL!]

8 hours ago, Supersuavesky said:

And if they can't prove without a shadow of a doubt Meyer knew, and a few text messages to his wife aren't proof, than there isn't much they can realistically do.

If he discussed this via text with his wife who texted with Smith's wife, there's a high probability that there is proof.  We don't know what details were discussed in them yet so how can anyone say it's not proof?  Does the university have the power of subpoenaing the text records for its investigation?  I doubt it.  I'd imagine Smith prolly kept hers.  But technically, they might be company phones (at least Urbz is).  That data could go to a server they have access to.  Eventually those records will be subpoenaed if this goes to trial and we'd find out then.

[buno67]

9 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I mean honestly OSU is one of the most desirable jobs in CFB. I'd make Lincoln Reily, Chip Kelly, David Shaw, and a bunch of NFL guys who might not feel safe long term say no first.

Could be a chance they maybe go after Vrabel, specially if he doesn’t have a great rookie year with the Titans. 

[buno67]

Weird part is they just had a gang rape survivor turned activist/speaker come and talk to the Ohio state football team last week. 

Also a good buddy of mine is a huge Ohio state fan. We were talking about everything going on and he then told me He went to high school and played HS football with Zach Smith. I asked him if Smith was as aggressive on the field like he is towards his wife/ex-wife he said Smith was a tame dude in HS. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

10 hours ago, JTagg7754 said:

I'm also with you on this. It sounds bad but I feel it's kinda overblown a little bit. 

Seriously?

We can talk about whether Urban and Shelley Meyer violated the law or their required mandated report duties (it appears likely to me that they did), and if you want to set the standard for decency at "anything legal", that's on you. But let's talk about the ethics of this for a second:

• In 2009, Zach Smith comes home drunk with another woman on his and Courtney's 1 year wedding anniversary while she's pregnant. He shoves her into a wall. He's arrested for battery of a pregnant woman.
  
  Urban Meyer's response is to send his two friends to persuade her to drop charges. Not to help her, not to ask her how she's doing, but to manipulate someone at an especially vulnerable time emotionally because he wanted to keep Zach Smith on staff in spite of the fact that he knew full well he just beat his pregnant wife.
•  In 2015, Courtney Smith is continuing to try and reach out to Shelley and Urban Meyer, pleading for help. She's now 6 years into abuse, and actually managed to get separated from Zach. 
  
  At some point, we need to talk about how difficult that is. The reason we have people in trusted positions like teachers, coaches, and medical professionals as mandatory reporters is because things like sexual abuse and domestic abuse are crimes of control. Abusers want their victims to blame themselves, control their social circle, and use anything they can to threaten their victims into accepting the status quo.
  
  Per McMurphy's article, Courtney Smith is telling us point blank Zach did all of those things:
  Example 1: "Zach once told me,” said Courtney, “if he ever got fired and this all comes out: ‘I’ll take everyone at Ohio State down with me.’ ”

  Example 2: Lindsey is the wife of Brian Voltolini, considered one of Meyer’s most loyal staff members. Brian is Ohio State’s football operations director and has been part of Meyer’s staffs for 15 seasons at Bowling Green, Utah, Florida and Ohio State.
  Courtney: “(Zach’s) trying to make me look crazy bc that’s what Shelley is saying (he’s doing)”
  
  Example 3: “I hung up out of fear because I was scared Zach would lose his job,” Courtney said. “He threw me down on the bathroom floor (in April of 2015) and screamed ‘look what you’ve turned me into.’ I don’t know what he was on. Another time, he took the top of a dip can and cut my hand. Everyone – all my family – said don’t call 911. If you do, he’ll get fired.”

• Urban Meyer, his wife, and the then-Florida now-OSU circle around them convinced her to stay with him out of a second chance in 2009. Then, they saw this was a continued pattern, saw pictures of the abuse, were fully aware of the psychological impact it was going to have not only on Courtney Smith but on their 2 kids as well, and didn't report it despite a legal duty. She was confiding in them and over 6 years was repeatedly pleading for help. The clear pattern here is one where Urban put the employment of Zach Smith above her safety and well being with full knowledge of the impact his decision would have.

• You say "oh well they knew the police were involved". They knew that Courtney Smith wasn't able to get a restraining order on Zach from the text messages we saw. They knew they were separated - that had happened months prior, which means they knew he was stalking her. They also knew that Courtney had a history on not following through with the police to document the paper trail needed to get a protective order because they helped manipulate her and set the precedent of not involving the police in the first place.

"Did Urban Meyer do anything expressly illegal or against the terms of his contract?" is a question for lawyers. I think so, but I'm not an expert. No one here is.

"Is this overblown?" Hell no. This is a repeated pattern of behavior where he sheltered Zach Smith as he abused his wife. He absolutely, 100% deserves to get crucified in the media and general public for this.

[AlexGreen#20]

The sending of the "Special Assistant to the Head coach" to encourage the victim of domestic abuse to stay silent.

Man that's some really messed up stuff.

[BobbyPhil1781]

35 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

.........

"Is this overblown?" Hell no. This is a repeated pattern of behavior where he sheltered Zach Smith as he abused his wife. He absolutely, 100% deserves to get crucified in the media and general public for this.

Sorry, I didn't state how I felt it's overblown. The situation itself is not. Dude is a monster that deserves everything bad that ever happens to him. Where I feel it's overblown is Meyer's supposed involved in it. 

Since you seem to know so much, can you please point me to where the evidence is that he knew? That is really what I'm looking for. Not his wife, other coaches wives, his kids, his dog, their coworkers etc etc, just him. Can you please point me to actual, tangible evidence that he knew this was happening and did nothing? Please don't look too much into this either, I am legitly asking for evidence and you seem to be pretty knowledgeable on the subject

[winitall]

43 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Seriously?

We can talk about whether Urban and Shelley Meyer violated the law or their required mandated report duties (it appears likely to me that they did), and if you want to set the standard for decency at "anything legal", that's on you. But let's talk about the ethics of this for a second:

• In 2009, Zach Smith comes home drunk with another woman on his and Courtney's 1 year wedding anniversary while she's pregnant. He shoves her into a wall. He's arrested for battery of a pregnant woman.
  
  Urban Meyer's response is to send his two friends to persuade her to drop charges. Not to help her, not to ask her how she's doing, but to manipulate someone at an especially vulnerable time emotionally because he wanted to keep Zach Smith on staff in spite of the fact that he knew full well he just beat his pregnant wife.
•  In 2015, Courtney Smith is continuing to try and reach out to Shelley and Urban Meyer, pleading for help. She's now 6 years into abuse, and actually managed to get separated from Zach. 
  
  At some point, we need to talk about how difficult that is. The reason we have people in trusted positions like teachers, coaches, and medical professionals as mandatory reporters is because things like sexual abuse and domestic abuse are crimes of control. Abusers want their victims to blame themselves, control their social circle, and use anything they can to threaten their victims into accepting the status quo.
  
  Per McMurphy's article, Courtney Smith is telling us point blank Zach did all of those things:
  Example 1: "Zach once told me,” said Courtney, “if he ever got fired and this all comes out: ‘I’ll take everyone at Ohio State down with me.’ ”

  Example 2: Lindsey is the wife of Brian Voltolini, considered one of Meyer’s most loyal staff members. Brian is Ohio State’s football operations director and has been part of Meyer’s staffs for 15 seasons at Bowling Green, Utah, Florida and Ohio State.
  Courtney: “(Zach’s) trying to make me look crazy bc that’s what Shelley is saying (he’s doing)”
  
  Example 3: “I hung up out of fear because I was scared Zach would lose his job,” Courtney said. “He threw me down on the bathroom floor (in April of 2015) and screamed ‘look what you’ve turned me into.’ I don’t know what he was on. Another time, he took the top of a dip can and cut my hand. Everyone – all my family – said don’t call 911. If you do, he’ll get fired.”

• Urban Meyer, his wife, and the then-Florida now-OSU circle around them convinced her to stay with him out of a second chance in 2009. Then, they saw this was a continued pattern, saw pictures of the abuse, were fully aware of the psychological impact it was going to have not only on Courtney Smith but on their 2 kids as well, and didn't report it despite a legal duty. She was confiding in them and over 6 years was repeatedly pleading for help. The clear pattern here is one where Urban put the employment of Zach Smith above her safety and well being with full knowledge of the impact his decision would have.

• You say "oh well they knew the police were involved". They knew that Courtney Smith wasn't able to get a restraining order on Zach from the text messages we saw. They knew they were separated - that had happened months prior, which means they knew he was stalking her. They also knew that Courtney had a history on not following through with the police to document the paper trail needed to get a protective order because they helped manipulate her and set the precedent of not involving the police in the first place.

"Did Urban Meyer do anything expressly illegal or against the terms of his contract?" is a question for lawyers. I think so, but I'm not an expert. No one here is.

"Is this overblown?" Hell no. This is a repeated pattern of behavior where he sheltered Zach Smith as he abused his wife. He absolutely, 100% deserves to get crucified in the media and general public for this.

Excellent post. Two details I would add:

1. One of the times Zach Smith threw her against the wall and started choking her, their young daughter was wrapped around her leg. 

2. One of the longtime friends that Urban sent in 2009 just happened to be Earl Bruce, Zach’s grandfather. Urban knew damn well that Bruce was going to do everything in his power to talk her out of reporting it. 

[IDOG_det]

7 hours ago, Raves said:

This is of course if Urban knew and not just his wife though right?  Obviously if Shelley didn't tell Urban about the text messages and by Smith's own admission he purposely kept his legal troubles to himself and didnt disclose to Urban going against the advice of his lawyer.

Also is what he said to the media, not an actual governing body, against his contract?  I'm not going to look into all the fine details because I'm not a lawyer or have amy legal background so I'm just going based on how i understand things.

Now if he violated his contract and the other rules then if he gets fired its his own fault.  Sucks to lose a great coach but its THE Ohio State and we'll find another coach and still be a top program.

Also why does someone have to report it to the police if they know for a fact, with the words of the accuser themselves, that the police are already investigating, especially of all they have is what they were told by the accuser.  I guess i just dont understand the aspect of it by law.

Read the text messages, Urban obviously knew. And, even if he didn't, that could just be a failure of institutional. Ignorance isn't an excuse, to be a part of the NCAA they accept responsibility even if they "didnt know" because it is their job to know. 

There's a provision in his contract that basically says he can't be "dishonest". It's a very vaguely worded provision which gives Ohio State a lot of leeway to define what that means. Lying about a coaches history of domestic violence certainly seems "dishonest".

It's not their job to report to the police. It is their job to separately report it to their Title IX/Compliance Office. That is what they seemingly failed to do. Cover ups happen when coaches/administrators get informed of "incidents and allegations" and no report is filed. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

19 minutes ago, JTagg7754 said:

Sorry, I didn't state how I felt it's overblown. The situation itself is not. Dude is a monster that deserves everything bad that ever happens to him. Where I feel it's overblown is Meyer's supposed involved in it. 

Since you seem to know so much, can you please point me to where the evidence is that he knew? That is really what I'm looking for. Not his wife, other coaches wives, his kids, his dog, their coworkers etc etc, just him. Can you please point me to actual, tangible evidence that he knew this was happening and did nothing? Please don't look too much into this either, I am legitly asking for evidence and you seem to be pretty knowledgeable on the subject

The evidence he knew of 2009 is obvious - he sent his "life coach" to manipulate her into staying silent. The evidence he knew about 2015, right now, is based on the texts "Urban doesn't know what to make of it" and that "Urban spoke to Zach and he said it didn't do it" (paraphrasing these). There is direct, blatant evidence that Shelley knew. McMurphy has said he thinks all of the coaches' wives knew.

Ohio State is going to investigate and they're going to find out immediately, but in the meantime, we just have to deduce what explains the facts that we have.

• Option 1: Urban Meyer didn't know.
  This means that more than a dozen assistant coaches and football personnel knew, there was an open secret among the Ohio State coaching staff, and everyone had simultaneously decided to keep this secret from Urban Meyer and not report this despite being mandated reporters just like Urban.
  
  That means that Shelley Meyer never told Urban the extent of her conversations with Courtney.
  
  That means that Urban Meyer, for no apparent reason, asked Zach if he had beaten his wife recently almost 6 years after the last incident which happened to coincide with almost immediately after Courtney texted Shelley.
  
  Keep in mind when you read that, Urban Meyer was already aware of the first incident. So everyone around him had to suddenly and independently decide to keep this a secret from him despite being fine with looping him in previously. And also keep in mind, Urban is a hyper-Type A, control freak coach who wants to know anything and everything about his program at absolutely all times, and all of his subordinates had to independently decide to cover this up from him.
• Option 2: Urban Meyer knew, and had made it clear either through words or actions that nothing was going to happen to Zach
  This explains why the assistant coaches and their wives didn't do anything - their boss said no. It explains why Shelley Meyer didn't report it - she brought it up to her husband and he didn't report it. It explains why Urban was asking Zach, and his acceptance that he didn't do it was consistent with his behavior from 2009.

Honestly here, what are the odds it's Option 1? We would have to have so many instances of behavior that is abnormal from so many different individuals in not reporting this to OSU/the police and keeping this a secret from Urban that it makes it a virtual impossibility.

[Thelonebillsfan]

Even if we say Urban didn't know, that's still a firable offense because his wife knew, the other coaches in his program knew, local reporters and countless people involved with the program knew and Urban has always had a reputation for how deeply involved with the program at every single level with every single coach and employee he is.

Either he knew and did nothing or he didn't and was beyond grossly negligent. He can't be as deeply involved in the day to day functions of his program and claim ignorance and have that be an excuse. If anything that should be more justification to fire him than if he knew, because it takes an absurd amount of willful or gross ignorance to be unaware that this was happening with how many other people directly related to him, and the program, knew.

[BobbyPhil1781]

3 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The evidence he knew of 2009 is obvious - he sent his "life coach" to manipulate her into staying silent. The evidence he knew about 2015, right now, is based on the texts "Urban doesn't know what to make of it" and that "Urban spoke to Zach and he said it didn't do it" (paraphrasing these). There is direct, blatant evidence that Shelley knew. McMurphy has said he thinks all of the coaches' wives knew.

Ohio State is going to investigate and they're going to find out immediately, but in the meantime, we just have to deduce what explains the facts that we have.

• Option 1: Urban Meyer didn't know.
  This means that more than a dozen assistant coaches and football personnel knew, there was an open secret among the Ohio State coaching staff, and everyone had simultaneously decided to keep this secret from Urban Meyer and not report this despite being mandated reports just like Urban.
  
  That means that Shelley Meyer never told Urban the extent of her conversations with Courtney.
  
  That means that Urban Meyer, for no apparent reason, asked Zach if he had beaten his wife recently almost 6 years after the last incident which happened to coincide with almost immediately after Courtney texted Shelley.
  
  Keep in mind when you read that, Urban Meyer was already aware of the first incident. So everyone around him had to suddenly and independently decide to keep this a secret from him. And also keep in mind, Urban is a hyper-Type A, control freak coach who wants to know anything and everything about his program at absolutely all times.
• Option 2: Urban Meyer knew, and had made it clear either through words or actions that nothing was going to happen to Zach
  This explains why the assistant coaches and their wives didn't do anything - their boss said no. It explains why Shelley Meyer didn't report it - she brought it up to her husband and he didn't report it. It explains why Urban was asking Zach, and his acceptance that he didn't do it was consistent with his behavior from 2009.

Honestly here, what are the odds it's Option 1? We see so many coordinated behavior from individuals keeping this secret that it makes it a virtual impossibility unless the OSU assistant coaches and wives can read minds.

OK So is 2009 a part of this investigation? I was under the impression it was only the 2015 incident in which he fired Smith once he found out (or supposedly).

Again, I know Shelley and wives knew but I don't care about that. They are not the subject of losing their jobs. They are not the ones w/ their reputation on the line. I know them knowing leads one to believe Urban knew but their wives knowing shouldn't be enough to convict someone and ruin their career.

Option 2 absolutely seems more likely than option 1, there is no question about that. Likelihood isn't tangible evidence though. Not sure how much of it was a secret though. The police were notified about this many, many times. How can it be a secret after that? Unless I'm not fully understanding and that is certainly a possibility. 

[Thelonebillsfan]

Why shouldn't it ruin his career and reputation? We aren't a court of law, we aren't required to judge him legally. We can take the fact that it's excessively unlikely that he didn't know and judge him based on that, and yes, his reputation should be shot for it. That's the choice he made when he said nothing. 

I don't need a text from Urban to Zach about how cool wife beating is or whatever to judge that Urban Meyer likely knew that his WR coach was abusing his wife and children and that he, despite being a mandatory reporter, did nothing, based on the overwhelming circumstantial evidence that points to this being the case.

[winitall]

3 minutes ago, JTagg7754 said:

OK So is 2009 a part of this investigation? I was under the impression it was only the 2015 incident in which he fired Smith once he found out (or supposedly).

Again, I know Shelley and wives knew but I don't care about that. They are not the subject of losing their jobs. They are not the ones w/ their reputation on the line. I know them knowing leads one to believe Urban knew but their wives knowing shouldn't be enough to convict someone and ruin their career.

Option 2 absolutely seems more likely than option 1, there is no question about that. Likelihood isn't tangible evidence though. Not sure how much of it was a secret though. The police were notified about this many, many times. How can it be a secret after that? Unless I'm not fully understanding and that is certainly a possibility. 

Go read through the text message screenshots that were posted with the original article. One of the coaches wives literally says something to the effect of ‘Urban talked to Zach about everything today’ and ‘Urban doesn’t know what to believe’. That’s a smoking gun right there. 

[IDOG_det]

Keep in mind that the burden of proof for Title IX is lower than that of a criminal conviction. Ohio State's policy also implements a burden of proof level at "the preponderance of the evidence", essentially meaning that you don't need a smoking gun. Shelley Meyer texting the victim that Urban Meyer "doesn't know what to think" about the situation would lead a reasonable person to believe that he has knowledge of the situation and allegations. You wouldn't necessarily need a text message from Urban proving that he knew or that he was intentionally covering it up.

[BobbyPhil1781]

5 minutes ago, winitall said:

Go read through the text message screenshots that were posted with the original article. One of the coaches wives literally says something to the effect of ‘Urban talked to Zach about everything today’ and ‘Urban doesn’t know what to believe’. That’s a smoking gun right there. 

I'll have to go back and reread those. I must have overlooked that part.