Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[Leader]

13 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Yeah, we've grown spoiled at the excellence TV can bring nowadays, no argument there.  Consider this, though - they cut the library scene shorter, or altogether - and they include even a 10 sec drop where we see her sneak up on a Wight, and then the ending scene has her dropping a wight's face....how powerful does that final scene become?   Explains the entire ability to sneak past the army unseen...it's not going to destroy the ep for me, but I do get the criticism on the library scene being out of place for her character-wise.  When a show's as dense as S8 has to be, these decisions do get magnified impact-wise.

I'm not privy to the specifics of your discussion but an observation.....

The "library sequence" was a creative break from the mayhem and chaos of the battles outdoors. It allowed the producers/directors to use different techniques to heighten the viewer's suspense, dread, anxiety......but in a different manner than the outright / indiscriminate slaughter that was going on. 

Plus - it allowed the story line to focus and dramatize two important themes - the reason the Lord of Light had continually kept that one guy alive - so he could save Ayra - and some quiet time with the Red Woman: "We know each other - met and spoke a long time ago and here we are at the end of the world and I know your purpose. Have you considered taking out any blue eyes recently?" 

And.....not to be discounted outright......its a lot cheaper to produce.

A long time back the Red Woman told Ayra: "You'll close many eyes......."

A prophesy that turned out 100% correct as Ayra closed more eyes than anybody else.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Leader

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, scar988 said:

I think the point of Arya coming up to the Night King from where she was is because she apparently had been swinging from Tree tops.

LOL.....either way though, even 10 secs showing how she did it would have been nice.  It's fine to leave plot twists to the imagination...if there's something to work off.  Here, there really wasn't.  It's not quite the same scale, but Dany making it up to the North in supersonic time brings back similar criticisms.

1 minute ago, PARROTHEAD said:

Why is Broncofan the only person I cant quote? Sucka betta get me off ignore.

But for the library thing. Arya had a nasty head injury. I think some of that was her trying to as you Americans say, "get her sh together". Thats the way I was taking it. Then she started to gather up herself and proceed. With Hound and Beric coming for her unleashing the 3rd quarter Brady down 28-3 comeback.

Glitch in the matrix, I can't edit my response on some replies where I quote someone, weird.

[oldman9er]

On 4/29/2019 at 10:09 PM, sammymvpknight said:

Arya could end the war with Cersei tomorrow if she wanted to. Who needs dragons when you can just pretend to be someone close to Cersei and slit her throat? Don’t need an army for that. 

It's a very interesting point, but it would certainly lack.... suspense and extended climax.. and make the final episodes worthless to have made (or profit from).  

Who Dat gone roll with it. 

[Broncofan]

Just now, Leader said:

I'm not privy to the specifics of your discussion but an observation.....

The "library sequence" was a creative break from the mayhem and chaos of the battles outdoors. It allowed the producers/directors to use different techniques to heighten the viewer's suspense, dread, anxiety......but in a different manner than the outright / indiscriminate slaughter that was going on. 

Plus - it allowed the story line to focus and dramatize two important themes - the reason the Lord of Light had continually kept that one guy alive - so he could save Ayra - and some quiet time with the Red Woman: "We know each other - met and spoke a long time ago and here we are at the end of the world and I know your purpose. Have you considered taking out any blue eyes recently?" 

And.....not to be discounted outright......its a lot cheaper to produce.

To be clear, I didn't have a problem with the Melisandre scene, I think it's crucial.  I don't have a problem with Beric's sacrifice.   I'm not suggesting taking that out altogether - I loved that Beric's sacrifice was ID'd, and they called back the S3 meeting and blue eyes/green eyes/brown eyes reference.   I just don't see the library scene itself, when Arya was hiding and dodging the NK minions with supposed fear/terror, that it was aligned with her character, and it certainly took enough time away for holes in the sequence that could have been addressed.   Keep the chase scene, keep the sacrifice/Melisandre meeting.   The scene within the library with the hiding and terror?   Expendable, and better for story sequencing / character alignment IMO.

But yes....the last part of the library scene being cheaper certainly factors in (although the idea of having Arya-sneaks-up-on-wight for 10-20 secs, then adding in 10 secs with her dropping the wight mask at the end after stabbing the NK....cheap too!).  

[mse326]

More talk about how AA prophecy needs to be true or it is was a lot of time on nothing. You should all look up what a MacGuffin is. It doesn't have to be true to matter. The mere fact the prophecy existed was necessary for the plot. It is what drove Rhaegar's actions. It is what drove Mellissandre's actions and therefore Stannis's and her decision to bring Jon back from the dead.

That is without the prophecy neither Robert's rebellion nor the actions in this series occur. The prophecy existing is absolutely essential. The truth or veracity of it is not; in fact it can easily be meaningless. That doesn't make it lazy writing.

The prophecy can simply be GoT's "rosebud" or "maltese falcon"

[Heimdallr]

The twist is going to be that the 3ER is the real bad guy all along. The Night King never had any particular interest in fighting humans, he was just trying to kill the 3ER, and the humans were in the way. It fully explains the NK's actions. 

Last 3 episodes:

- Bran wakes up and tells everyone his body was overtaken by the 3ER, but the 3ER escaped (warged into crows) and they need to find and kill him. The true Great Other is still out there. Being controlled by the 3ER for so long slowly killed him though, and Bran dies. 

- During this, the NK's touch on Arya starts slowly turning her into a WW. Dany+Arya beg Jon to kill her before the change is complete, but Jon refuses and turns against Dany to defend Arya. Dany puts Jorah's/Sam's sword through Jon's heart (thus fulfilling the prophecy and igniting Lightbringer). Dany then kills Arya just as she turns into a WW. 

- There is existing lore (I'm not sure if it is in the show or not) that the 3ER had also communicated with Euron during the time he was trying to lure Bran to his cave, so we know the 3ER has a connection with Euron. He flies (still in his raven form) to KL and takes over Euron's body. 

- Dany and the rest of the allies go to KL, we have a nice big battle, lots of people die, and Cersei is defeated.

- The big final standoff is between Dany (Azor Ahai / LotL) and Euron (The Great Other). Probably one of the dragons gets turned and they face-off on dragons. 

 
 

 

[Leader]

1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

To be clear, I didn't have a problem with the Melisandre scene, I think it's crucial.  I don't have a problem with Beric's sacrifice.   I'm not suggesting taking that out altogether - I loved that Beric's sacrifice was ID'd, and they called back the S3 meeting and blue eyes/green eyes/brown eyes reference.   I just don't see the library scene itself, when Arya was hiding and dodging the NK minions with supposed fear/terror, that it was aligned with her character, and it certainly took enough time away for holes in the sequence that could have been addressed.   Keep the chase scene, keep the sacrifice/Melisandre meeting.   The scene within the library with the hiding and terror?   Expendable, and better for story sequencing / character alignment IMO.

But yes....the last part of the library scene being cheaper certainly factors in (although the idea of having Arya-sneaks-up-on-wight for 10-20 secs, then adding in 10 secs with her dropping the wight mask at the end after stabbing the NK....cheap too!).  

No hassle. I dont get over analytical about such stuff. I didnt view the library sequence from a "character development" perspective -  just story telling.

I'm not getting this thought: "although the idea of having Arya-sneaks-up-on-wight for 10-20 secs, then adding in 10 secs with her dropping the wight mask at the end after stabbing the NK....cheap too!)"

You thought (or perhaps was thinking....) they'd write it in such a way as she'd approach the NK in "masked" disguise?

[ramssuperbowl99]

4 minutes ago, mse326 said:

More talk about how AA prophecy needs to be true or it is was a lot of time on nothing. You should all look up what a MacGuffin is. It doesn't have to be true to matter. The mere fact the prophecy existed was necessary for the plot. It is what drove Rhaegar's actions. It is what drove Mellissandre's actions and therefore Stannis's and her decision to bring Jon back from the dead.

That is without the prophecy neither Robert's rebellion nor the actions in this series occur. The prophecy existing is absolutely essential. The truth or veracity of it is not; in fact it can easily be meaningless. That doesn't make it lazy writing.

The prophecy can simply be GoT's "rosebud" or "maltese falcon"

Then the show should address that directly. "We had a prophecy, but it was a misdirect" is... kind of weird for Western lit, but is still a lot better than "We had a prophecy, and who knows".

[scar988]

4 minutes ago, Heimdallr said:

The twist is going to be that the 3ER is the real bad guy all along. The Night King never had any particular interest in fighting humans, he was just trying to kill the 3ER, and the humans were in the way. It fully explains the NK's actions. 

Last 3 episodes:

- Bran wakes up and tells everyone his body was overtaken by the 3ER, but the 3ER escaped (warged into crows) and they need to find and kill him. The true Great Other is still out there. Being controlled by the 3ER for so long slowly killed him though, and Bran dies. 

- During this, the NK's touch on Arya starts slowly turning her into a WW. Dany+Arya beg Jon to kill her before the change is complete, but Jon refuses and turns against Dany to defend Arya. Dany puts Jorah's/Sam's sword through Jon's heart (thus fulfilling the prophecy and igniting Lightbringer). Dany then kills Arya just as she turns into a WW. 

- There is existing lore (I'm not sure if it is in the show or not) that the 3ER had also communicated with Euron during the time he was trying to lure Bran to his cave, so we know the 3ER has a connection with Euron. He flies (still in his raven form) to KL and takes over Euron's body. 

- Dany and the rest of the allies go to KL, we have a nice big battle, lots of people die, and Cersei is defeated.

- The big final standoff is between Dany (Azor Ahai / LotL) and Euron (The Great Other). Probably one of the dragons gets turned and they face-off on dragons. 

 
 

 

This just seems super far-fetched.

[Heimdallr]

3 minutes ago, scar988 said:

This just seems super far-fetched.

Probably, but for the sake of discussion, why?

I'm just trying to find a way to fulfill the prophecies, complete all the story and character arc's, and have the WTF ending we have been told we are getting.

[Broncofan]

6 minutes ago, Leader said:

No hassle. I dont get over analytical about such stuff. I didnt view the library sequence from a "character development" perspective -  just story telling.

I'm not getting this thought: "although the idea of having Arya-sneaks-up-on-wight for 10-20 secs, then adding in 10 secs with her dropping the wight mask at the end after stabbing the NK....cheap too!)"

You thought (or perhaps was thinking....) they'd write it in such a way as she'd approach the NK in "masked" disguise?

I'm just looking for some way to explain the very rapid timeline to get to the NK.   I was referring to another theory put out - my point was that it's easy enough to show whatever reason got her there so quickly without interference (stealth, assuming ID like with Freys, walkers being called off, etc.).  It just seemed bettter use of time than the hiding/fear library scene.  Again, like I said b4, it's not a deal-breaker, but it stood out as filler/out of character, so it's easy to ID that as a missed opp. 

[mse326]

2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Then the show should address that directly. "We had a prophecy, but it was a misdirect" is... kind of weird for Western lit, but is still a lot better than "We had a prophecy, and who knows".

Since when do you need things to smack you over the head. There has been enough talk of it in the series to make clear that certain characters entire motivation for their actions has been the prophecy. That is more than enough.

And MacGuffins appear quite regularly in Western media. Some of the greatest movies ever utilized it.

[Leader]

11 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I just don't see the library scene itself.......

Thought to - but failed to address this part of your comment. In movie making its a known......tactic (?) method or device - that you've actually got to let the audience relax some. If a director is just bludgeoning his audience with complete, total, non-stop sensory overload - they numb out on you.

I'd edited my earlier comment to include this:

A long time back the Red Woman told Ayra: "You'll close many eyes......."

A prophesy that turned out 100% correct as Ayra closed more eyes than anybody else.

I've no clue how the books depicted this (and dont care) - but as a method of story telling, I thought this was well done.

[Heimdallr]

Just now, Leader said:

Thought to - but failed to address this part of your comment. In movie making its a known......tactic (?) method or device - that you've actually got to let the audience relax some. If a director is just bludgeoning his audience with complete, total, non-stop sensory overload - they numb out on you.

Yeah, and the writer's openly say that during the interview after the episode. They needed a tense, non-action scene to reset the audience. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 minute ago, mse326 said:

Since when do you need things to smack you over the head. There has been enough talk of it in the series to make clear that certain characters entire motivation for their actions has been the prophecy. That is more than enough.

And MacGuffins appear quite regularly in Western media. Some of the greatest movies ever utilized it.

Isn't a MacGuffin an object, not a prophecy? Like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction.