Will Eli be benched again this season?

[iknowcool]

41 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

1. Better than he would be if Nelson wasn't there.

Well, maybe, but if the protection is still bad then what difference does it make? 

And again, you seem to be under the belief that finding a good late round RB is that much more likely than finding a good late round guard.  Panthers don’t have a single first round pick on their offensive line and they’ve been great this year.  We let Norwell walk and it hasn’t made a difference. It’s like we’re acting as if RB is the only position you can find after the 1st.

Barkley is as good of an offensive player to enter the NFL in a long time.  I mean, would you not take Barry Sanders #2 overall?  I’m not suggesting Barkley will be that good (but who knows... he’s already my favorite NFL player not named Cam Newton so I’m biased), but the point remains. I don’t think you can ever blame a team for taking a HOF talent regardless of position.

And there’s no doubt in my mind that unless he gets hurt, he’s gonna have a HOF career.  I’ve never been as sure about it for another player. Elite talent, work ethic, seems like a great dude.  Him owning my Panthers on multiple plays didn’t even make me mad.  He’s just so good, and you aren’t finding a player like him after the 1st.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

40 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Well, maybe, but if the protection is still bad then what difference does it make? 

And again, you seem to be under the belief that finding a good late round RB is that much more likely than finding a good late round guard.  Panthers don’t have a single first round pick on their offensive line and they’ve been great this year.  We let Norwell walk and it hasn’t made a difference. It’s like we’re acting as if RB is the only position you can find after the 1st.

Barkley is as good of an offensive player to enter the NFL in a long time.  I mean, would you not take Barry Sanders #2 overall?  I’m not suggesting Barkley will be that good (but who knows... he’s already my favorite NFL player not named Cam Newton so I’m biased), but the point remains. I don’t think you can ever blame a team for taking a HOF talent regardless of position.

And there’s no doubt in my mind that unless he gets hurt, he’s gonna have a HOF career.  I’ve never been as sure about it for another player. Elite talent, work ethic, seems like a great dude.  Him owning my Panthers on multiple plays didn’t even make me mad.  He’s just so good, and you aren’t finding a player like him after the 1st.

I mean so far this season the Colts protection has been average. Which is a lot better than it was to end the year last season where they were like a bottom third of the league line. 

You can find multiple backs in the later rounds that can share quality snaps. Offensive lineman don't rotate unless injury occurs. Look at the Eagles last season with their plethora of runners. None of them were superstars. Patriots have been doing this for years. 

Why do you keep bringing up the Panthers? They rank 20th in PFF offensive line rankings this year. That isn't great. So far this season they've taken a big slide from where they were last year, when they were a top ten unit. Seems like a difference to me. 

Barkley isn't Barry Sanders, and it would depend who else is available in this hypothetical hindsight draft. HOF career for Barkley unless he gets hurt? Possibly. Could be said about a lot of guys that have come and gone. 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, PapaShogun said:

1. Better than he would be if Nelson wasn't there.

2. But it can happen is the point. Or at least when the 30 year mark hits your player isn't most likely done. That's highly likely for a runner. Much more than a corner or offensive lineman that also sees a lot of snaps maintain their quality of play at that mark and beyond. 

Nelson isn’t exactly lighting it up 

[showtime]

Can't spell elite without eli

[TecmoSuperJoe]

9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Nelson isn’t exactly lighting it up 

I mean...he's a rookie a few games into his career. He's playing okay thus far. Not great, not horrible. He had had a great game against the Patriots recently. Same with fellow rookie Braden Smith. So far the Colts line has a whole is better than where it was. 

Mike McGlinchey was off to a slow start for the 49ers the first couple of weeks. Now he's playing pretty well. Arguably the best run blocking tackle in the league right now. A lot of OL's success depends on how they work with their fellow guys in the trenches. It's understandable that it takes time. 

 

[minutemancl]

4 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

I mean...he's a rookie a few games into his career. He's playing okay thus far. Not great, not horrible. He had had a great game against the Patriots recently. Same with fellow rookie Braden Smith. So far the Colts line has a whole is better than where it was. 

Mike McGlinchey was off to a slow start for the 49ers the first couple of weeks. Now he's playing pretty well. Arguably the best run blocking tackle in the league right now. A lot of OL's success depends on how they work with their fellow guys in the trenches. It's understandable that it takes time. 

 

Will Hernandez has been objectively better than Quenton Nelson so far. Barkley has been objectively the best rookie RB so far. Why are you insisting Quenton Nelson + some 2nd round RB would be better than Barkley/Hernandez? It could be true going forward and in hindsight, but that isn't the case at all right now.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

5 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

Will Hernandez has been objectively better than Quenton Nelson so far. Barkley has been objectively the best rookie RB so far. Why are you insisting Quenton Nelson + some 2nd round RB would be better than Barkley/Hernandez? It could be true going forward and in hindsight, but that isn't the case at all right now.

I'm not speaking from hindsight. I'm talking about making the decision based on value at the time. And it didn't have to be a guard that the Giants could have taken. Could have been a quarterback. Could have been Ward (who is the best rookie corner right now I think). Or they could have traded back. 

[minutemancl]

Just now, PapaShogun said:

I'm not speaking from hindsight. I'm talking about making the decision based on value at the time. 

Quenton Nelson was probably the 2nd best overall player in the draft behind Barkley, so let's call that a wash. You think a Guard has more positional value than a RB? I understand the importance of a good guard, especially in today's NFL with freakish DTs, but I disagree big time. As far as value inside the position groupings, I think the fall off from Barkley to Chubb or Michel was much higher than the fall off from Nelson to Hernandez. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 minute ago, minutemancl said:

Quenton Nelson was probably the 2nd best overall player in the draft behind Barkley, so let's call that a wash. You think a Guard has more positional value than a RB? I understand the importance of a good guard, especially in today's NFL with freakish DTs, but I disagree big time. As far as value inside the position groupings, I think the fall off from Barkley to Chubb or Michel was much higher than the fall off from Nelson to Hernandez. 

I think that taking a runningback at number 2 overall considering where the Giants are at as a franchise, isn't good value. They didn't have to take Nelson at #2. I wonder if they seriously entertained trading back. 

[minutemancl]

1 minute ago, PapaShogun said:

I think that taking a runningback at number 2 overall considering where the Giants are at as a franchise, isn't good value. They didn't have to take Nelson at #2. I wonder if they seriously entertained trading back. 

I think if they received the Jets offer, they may have, but they never got offered that deal. Apparently Gettleman received offers, but they were lousy. I don't think trading back was ever almost a possibility.

[TheVillain112]

If the Giants don't get the first overall pick and QB needy team does or Herbert doesn't declare, the QB market is going to be bare for them...

[minutemancl]

Per Dan Duggan on Twitter:

Quote

Shurmur said there is no plan to make a QB change: “I believe in Eli.”

He must really want Herbert. If Eli starts all 16 games this year, there won't be any Giants fans at home games after the bye.

Shurmur should make a trade for Kyle Sloter, sign Luis Perez and let those 2 + Lauletta battle it out for a chance to play this year. 

[Rockice_8]

14 hours ago, Totty said:

I'm far from an Eli fan.  But maybe they thought Barkley was better than any QB in the draft? So you settle for a QB that you're not wild about and miss out on what could be a generational talent?  Eh.  Tough call.  

They would have been in the minority then because most were really excited about (Darnold, Mayfield, and Rosen) and sitting at 2 you were guaranteed to have a choice of 2.  The other 2 guys Allen and Jackson had mixed reviews so if they had to choose between them and Barkley I get it but they had their choice between Darnold and Rosen.

It's funny but the term generational talent is thrown around a lot and while he is clearly a special talent they have a loaded offense with him, OBJ etc and have one of the worst offenses in football.  Is Bell a generational talent, is Gurley?  I mean he is special no doubt but if you spend the next 4 seasons rebuilding he'll have wasted a large part of his prime on a bad team with nothing to show.  At this rate unless they can fix the OL and QB situation quickly he could be stuck on a bad team for the next few seasons taking 400+ touches for no reason.

As good as he is it's why I'd never take a RB top 10 let alone top 3 when my team needed a QB.  It's like Zeke and Fournette they were supposed to be the missing pieces yet their offenses are still not good.

[iknowcool]

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

I mean so far this season the Colts protection has been average. Which is a lot better than it was to end the year last season where they were like a bottom third of the league line. 

You can find multiple backs in the later rounds that can share quality snaps. Offensive lineman don't rotate unless injury occurs. Look at the Eagles last season with their plethora of runners. None of them were superstars. Patriots have been doing this for years. 

Why do you keep bringing up the Panthers? They rank 20th in PFF offensive line rankings this year. That isn't great. So far this season they've taken a big slide from where they were last year, when they were a top ten unit. Seems like a difference to me. 

Barkley isn't Barry Sanders, and it would depend who else is available in this hypothetical hindsight draft. HOF career for Barkley unless he gets hurt? Possibly. Could be said about a lot of guys that have come and gone. 

Panthers are the team I'm most familiar with, so its just easier for me to reference them.

And I don't really care about PFF rankings.  Cam Newton is only getting sacked on 5.1% of his dropbacks, which would be by far the lowest of his career so far (vs 6.3 in 2011/2015).  It's definitely an improvement over last year, albeit better play from receivers and scheme has made a difference too.  And no Matt Kalil of course.

You keep mentioning you can find backs in the later rounds (which isn't the same thing as having a Barkley) but ignoring that you can do the same thing with guards.  I mean, Yanda was considered the best guard for many years and he went in the 3rd.  Norwell wasn't drafted.  Turner went in the 3rd.  Brooks went 3rd.  Sitton went 4th.  I can go on and on.  There isn't a massive discrepancy between drafting a RB in later rounds vs another position in later rounds in regards to a teams potential in finding a quality starter.  I mean, using this logic, why support any NFL team drafting any positions in the first other than QB, LT, or Pass Rushers?  Those are the only positions where the top is that much more likely to be filled with former first round-picks.  Even at corner, you have the aforementioned Sherman who went 5th or 6th.  C. Harris wasn't drafted.  Bouye wasn't drafted.  Slay went 2nd.  Hayward went 2nd.  

Same thing when its brought up how teams are able to function without a star RB.  I can name successful teams without a first-round LT or pass rusher or CB, etc.  I mean, who did the Patriots start at corner in the Super Bowl?  Where was Chandler Jones?  The Patriots succeed regardless of who they have.  So using them as an example doesn't prove much.  They could probably make the Super Bowl with Matt Kalil protecting Brady.

I can kind of get the argument that they are more likely to have shorter careers, but 7-8 years of Pro-Bowl/All-Pro caliber play is still an enormous boost.  Not drafting a player because he might not be still be good 10+ years later seems like a silly reason to me; its hard to be good at any position for 10+ years.  It might be "easier" at guard, but its still unlikely and because of the nature of the game that it isn't something that should be factored in that much.  And quite frankly, given Barkley's skill-set, there is no reason to believe he isn't capable of balling out for 7-8 seasons.  McCoy's had 8-9 strong seasons (8 if you don't want to credit him for his rookie season).  LDT had 7-8 great years.  Faulk was at 9.  AD at 8.  I mean, when did having "only" 8 great seasons become an issue?  That's a long time and the game changes a lot in that time frame - think about where the Giants were at in 2010 vs 2018.  It isn't like the Giants aren't ever going to have another opportunity to draft a guard or other good players to fill their team.  

I kind of think the lull the NFL went through between 2009-whenever Gurley came kind of clouds how people feel about RBs, because that was a period where there weren't a lot of elite RBs coming out.  So you had some guys falling to the 3rd-4th round and having success, and now people just automatically underrate the value of the top guys like Gurley, Zeke, Barkley, McCaffrey, etc.  5 of the 10 leading rushers in the NFL right now were 1st round picks, and McCaffrey is only at 11th because he already had his bye week - he was leading the NFL in YFS a game (not sure if he still is after Barkley's performance).  So that's 6 of 11 guys.  That is probably about the same ratio, if not better, of 1st round/2nd and beyond in the top portion of their position as it is for guard or linebacker or wide receiver.

[Rockice_8]

1 hour ago, minutemancl said:

Quenton Nelson was probably the 2nd best overall player in the draft behind Barkley, so let's call that a wash. You think a Guard has more positional value than a RB? I understand the importance of a good guard, especially in today's NFL with freakish DTs, but I disagree big time. As far as value inside the position groupings, I think the fall off from Barkley to Chubb or Michel was much higher than the fall off from Nelson to Hernandez. 

Totally disagree.  RB's are a dime a dozen.  A mediocre RB can have great careers running behind a good OL.  There is a reason why teams are desperate of OL help.