has Williams earned a shot as the Browns HC next year?

[hornbybrown]

50 minutes ago, SwoleXmad said:

......Did.....Did people forget about Bountygate and what this guy was outed for?

Dude shouldn't be coaching let alone be the HC for a QB who has shown the most promise in Cleveland in a decade.

So no throw him into the River and start anew.

Do people really believe he was the first person to do this?

[Manny/Patrick]

Kill the head and the body dies. 10 year deal pleSe

[imDelusional]

I feel like anyone saying he shouldn't be in the league should feel 100% the same way about Sean Payton then. That was his team after all, Williams was just the DC. 

I don't feel that way personally, and I think the Browns would be smart to seriously consider him, especially if they continue on an upward trajectory the rest of this season.

[Xmad]

3 hours ago, hornbybrown said:

Do people really believe he was the first person to do this?

I didn't say he was the first to do it, I'm saying he's clearly an idiot who should be out of the league.

Not to mention he's 60, has a terrible coaching track record the past few seasons (ask rams fans about his defenses with them) and has too much off the field baggage.

3 hours ago, BayRaider said:

Bounty Gate is one of the most over blown things I’ve ever seen. Paying people to hit hard? Give me a break. Do you know how many times this has probably been done in NFL History? I’m sure several teams in the 70’s would get a bonus for knockin a guy out cold. Big frickin deal. 

I’m much more concerned about actual cheating. Such as Spygate and SalaryGate from the Broncos in the 90s.

Probably dozens and they're all wrong for doing it, a shame we'll probably never find out what teams and coaching staffs allowed that since obviously no one's going to rat anyone out at this point.

Injuries are the worst thing about football, imagine if your boss incentiveized sales by asking you to break the salesman across the street's leg with a crowbar, is that something you would do/tolerate? If you don't see the problem with asking your players to intentionally hurt the other team's players I don't know what else to tell you.

[Xmad]

27 minutes ago, imDelusional said:

I feel like anyone saying he shouldn't be in the league should feel 100% the same way about Sean Payton then. That was his team after all, Williams was just the DC. 

I don't feel that way personally, and I think the Browns would be smart to seriously consider him, especially if they continue on an upward trajectory the rest of this season.

Payton shouldn't be in the league but he's a talented HC who won a superbowl, he was always going to get a second chance. The NFL is never going to value morality over wins/$$$/insert thing here. I feel like he's less of a scumbag than Williams if only by the smallest of margins.

[patriotsheatyan]

3 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Like I said in another thread, don't see the point in hiring a coach from a defensive oriented background these days. Baker would be at the mercy of offensive coordinator after offensive coordinator. As soon as he plays well, his OC could bolt for a head coaching job. Getting the right coach is a crapshoot as it is. Why add this potential problem to your plate if you don't have to? Your most important player just started his career. Make it as easy for him as possible. Consistency in one system will go a long way.

Almost every elite and good QB drafted in the last 20 years started their career under a defensive HC. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

29 minutes ago, patriotsheatyan said:

Almost every elite and good QB drafted in the last 20 years started their career under a defensive HC. 

That's not true. Even if it was, some have had the fortunate in not having their OC bolt and having to learn a new offensive system. Peyton Manning had Tom Moore for years. Same with Eli Manning, and Kevin Gilbride. Those guys probably weren't fielding head coaching jobs due to age more than anything. Drew Brees was taken by Marty Schottenheimer, but made his name under Sean Payton for years. Rodgers has been with McCarthy since the beginning. Goff has been revitalized under McVay, after looking hopeless with Fisher. Mahomes has Reid. 

I'm not saying you can't succeed as a quarterback with a coach that comes from a defensive oriented background along with rotating coordinators. Brady and Roethlisberger have done that. Along with Wilson, and Newton if you think he's elite. But my point still stands. Why invite a potential issue like that for your most important player, when you don't have to? Could easily end up with an Alex Smith or Jay Cutler situation where it's coordinator after coordinator year after year. There is no upside to it. Only down. 

[riceman80]

I say no. Young team on the rise will be best served with a young, fresh mind. I could see a young offensive minded HC coming in and keeping him as DC tho

[patriotsheatyan]

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

That's not true. Even if it was, some have had the fortunate in not having their OC bolt and having to learn a new offensive system. Peyton Manning had Tom Moore for years. Same with Eli Manning, and Kevin Gilbride. Those guys probably weren't fielding head coaching jobs due to age more than anything. Drew Brees was taken by Marty Schottenheimer, but made his name under Sean Payton for years. Rodgers has been with McCarthy since the beginning. Goff has been revitalized under McVay, after looking hopeless with Fisher. Mahomes has Reid. 

I'm not saying you can't succeed as a quarterback with a coach that comes from a defensive oriented background along with rotating coordinators. Brady and Roethlisberger have done that. Along with Wilson, and Newton if you think he's elite. But my point still stands. Why invite a potential issue like that for your most important player, when you don't have to? Could easily end up with an Alex Smith or Jay Cutler situation where it's coordinator after coordinator year after year. There is no upside to it. Only down. 

Brees: First five years under defensive HC.

Brady: Entire career under defensive coach.

Manning: Every year before 2015 under defensive HC.

Ben: Entire career under defensive HC.

Romo: First eight years under defensive HC.

Rivers: First three seasons under defensive HC

Wilson: Entire career under defensive HC.

Ryan: Entire career under defensive HC.

Palmer: First eight years under defensive HC.

Stafford: Entire career under defensive HC.

Andrew Luck: First five years under defensive HC.

Cam Newton: Entire career under defensive HC.

Alex Smith: First six years under defensive HC.

Joe Flacco: Entire career under STs coach.

All of these guys had their breakout years under defensive/special teams HCs besides Smith, who had still progressed into a decent game manager before Harbaugh. And that’s probably 14 of the 17 most accomplished QBs drafted in the last twenty years. Of the more accomplished QBs with offensive HCs, you have Eli who clearly sucked most of his career, Rodgers who has a coach that has never developed another QB before, and McNabb who was uncoachable. Among the absolute best, having offensive head coaches teaching them when young is even less common.

Let’s face it: there is no such thing as a true QB guru or some special trick to develop QBs, and hiring an offensive head coach has a strong negative correlation with QB development. Some offensive coaches are better at not getting their QB killed, making better play calls, playing to their QBs strengths, establishing running game/open receivers/pass protection, but they won’t significantly improve arm strength, accuracy, size, speed, IQ, or work ethic. They can help improve mechanics, but not a whole lot more and than still has quite a few requirements to matter. Talented first round QBs like Goff and Mahomes having a short period of success on uber talented teams doesn’t mean that Reid and McVay made them.

So if the best candidate is a DC or STC, take them. All time great QBs can develop just fine under them. So can good QBs.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

46 minutes ago, patriotsheatyan said:

Brees: First five years under defensive HC.

Brady: Entire career under defensive coach.

Manning: Every year before 2015 under defensive HC.

Ben: Entire career under defensive HC.

Romo: First eight years under defensive HC.

Rivers: First three seasons under defensive HC

Wilson: Entire career under defensive HC.

Ryan: Entire career under defensive HC.

Palmer: First eight years under defensive HC.

Stafford: Entire career under defensive HC.

Andrew Luck: First five years under defensive HC.

Cam Newton: Entire career under defensive HC.

Alex Smith: First six years under defensive HC.

Joe Flacco: Entire career under STs coach.

All of these guys had their breakout years under defensive/special teams HCs besides Smith, who had still progressed into a decent game manager before Harbaugh. And that’s probably 14 of the 17 most accomplished QBs drafted in the last twenty years. Of the more accomplished QBs with offensive HCs, you have Eli who clearly sucked most of his career, Rodgers who has a coach that has never developed another QB before, and McNabb who was uncoachable. Among the absolute best, having offensive head coaches teaching them when young is even less common.

Let’s face it: there is no such thing as a true QB guru or some special trick to develop QBs, and hiring an offensive head coach has a strong negative correlation with QB development. Some offensive coaches are better at not getting their QB killed, making better play calls, playing to their QBs strengths, establishing running game/open receivers/pass protection, but they won’t significantly improve arm strength, accuracy, size, speed, IQ, or work ethic. They can help improve mechanics, but not a whole lot more and than still has quite a few requirements to matter. Talented first round QBs like Goff and Mahomes having a short period of success on uber talented teams doesn’t mean that Reid and McVay made them.

So if the best candidate is a DC or STC, take them. All time great QBs can develop just fine under them. So can good QBs.

Don't really agree with your assessment on some of the quarterback careers you listed, so I'm not sure I can go any further with you on this topic. I stand by what I said though regarding consistency in a system. There is no upside to playing musical chairs in different systems. I already said some of the guys on your list may have had a defensive minded coach, but had the luxury of playing in consistent system due to the OC sticking around. The league is more offensive oriented than ever as well. Doesn't mean you can't succeed hoping from coordinator to coordinator, but there is no upside to having that issue around.

And there have been coaches with a good track record on developing quarterbacks. Yes, you still need talent, but that talent needs to be handled appropriately even once it's acquired. 

[sdrawkcab321]

8 hours ago, Nex_Gen said:

Dominating a team who is on a complete downward spiral is a good sign?

They dominated Atlanta as well. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Probably not.

Our biggest changes since Hue’s firing have come on the offensive side of the ball under Kitchens.  Not sure Kitchens is going to be ready to be a HC, but it does go to show the importance of having a sound offensive mind with Baker. If guys like Arians, Riley, Flip, etc are available, I think they’re better long term options than Williams.

I mean, if we continue to win and be successful, Kitchens will get his own gig before too long most likely, and the we have Greggggg running a team with a new OC.  I’ll pass on that tbh.  

I think Gregggggg has done a good job cleaning up the sloppy play and getting guys to compete, but the wins shouldn’t be the selling point imo as I’ve argued for 2 years now there’s more talent on this roster than the records would indicate.

Lots of football left though.  If Gregggg and Co. run the table or only lose another game or two, it’s going to be hard to fire him unless you’re bringing in a big name.

[rfournier103]

8 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Like I said in another thread, don't see the point in hiring a coach from a defensive oriented background these days. Baker would be at the mercy of offensive coordinator after offensive coordinator. As soon as he plays well, his OC could bolt for a head coaching job. Getting the right coach is a crapshoot as it is. Why add this potential problem to your plate if you don't have to? Your most important player just started his career. Make it as easy for him as possible. Consistency in one system will go a long way.

I 1000% agree with this. If the Browns are ever going to climb off the dung hill, they need a good to excellent quarterback, and CONSISTENCY with the coaching staff. 

They’re having their best season in years. Keep this staff in place and see where it goes. Good call on the OC, by the way. 

[buno67]

He def earned his shot but I wouldn’t give him the job without interviewing others. Gregg Williams is a great short term for the Browns but I am not sure long term. Interview and find out if Gregg separates himself and others. He had advantage, let’s see if it holds true for him. 

[buno67]

He def earned his shot but I wouldn’t give him the job without interviewing others. Gregg Williams is a great short term for the Browns but I am not sure long term. Interview and find out if Gregg separates himself and others. He has advantage, let’s see if it holds true for him.