This team needs a 2nd round WR/TE/RB or equivalent FA

[SSG]

2 hours ago, PACKRULE said:

Are we allowed to draft Edge or a pass rushing tackle? Maybe a couple of them. Heck we're ok at WR we could even dabble in the FA market for a mid tier guy. My point was that yuck on drafting a WR early it's not a need. The kids are developing nicely and yes we still have Allison and why would we have to write him a blank check if the kids don't pan out? Just silly spend the early draft capital on the positions with the best possible return on the investment.

I can't imagine what your posts would be like if we have no pass rush next year and have 7 WR's again. The defensive front 7 needs an 2 good pieces added and if we're letting CM3 walk which we likely will we could be pretty short.

Myself I'd take a RB before a take a WR in this draft.

Certainly.  I'm just as angry about ignoring edge defenders over the last 3 or 4 years as I am the way we've ignored the offense.  No one ever said we've got to treat the WR position like we've treated the DB position by throwing premium pick after premium pick after premium pick at it year after year after year (our top 2 picks in 3 of the last 4 years).  I'm just asking for premium pick to finally be used on WR and or TE.  We're a team that has essentially ignored our offense in the draft over the last 4 years and we're paying for it with an offense that wasn't good enough to get to the playoffs.  We've got one pass catcher that can get open consistently.  Because of our infatuation with old deteriorating TEs, we're ancient at that position.  This isn't a great offense and we shouldn't be drafting like it is.  If we get the same sort of play from our WRs next year we'll again be watching the playoffs from home.  Say what you want about the defense but it was a much better and more consistent unit than the offense.  They kept us in games that our terrible offense ended up losing for us.  The way we went full halves of football looking as bad as any offense in the NFL is frightening for the future of this offense.   

Don't think we have an issue at RB.  Both Aaron Jones (5.5 yards per carry over the last 2 years, which is the best mark in the NFL) and Jamaal Williams are substantially better than any WR we've got not named Adams.  MOST good offenses can't produce at a high level with just one quality pass catcher (Maybe New Orleans but even then Alvin Kamara is an elite pass catcher at his position).  

[SSG]

41 minutes ago, Haha21 said:

I would love for us to draft Marquise Brown, out of Oklahoma, to replace Cobb. He's a home run threat every time he touches the ball.

His size is a little concerning to me but he reminds me of Tyreek Hill a little.  A human joy stick that is as fast as any player you'll ever see on a football field.  Must be something in that families blood with the way they've produced big time WRs.  

[SSG]

1 hour ago, wgbeethree said:

I honestly don't care what positions we draft with the first and second round picks. I'd just like to hit on two of them. We haven't done that in about a decade. Depending on your opinion on Raji and Collins you may have to go all the way back to Hawk and Jennings to find a pair that were quality players through their second contracts.

 

Though we certainly didn't get immediate production, 05 with Rodgers and Collins were home runs. 

We did well with our first 2 picks in 2014.  HHCD and Davante Adams.  HHCD was a serviceable starter.  Adams production wasn't great as a rookie but it didn't need to be.  We had the #1 offense in the league with multiple all pro caliber WRs that were a big reason AR12 won his second MVP award.  

Since 2014, it's been rough sledding.  We may do good with one of those picks but we ended up bombing the other.  

 

Could only dream to have a 2017 Saints type of draft.  All pro caliber player with the first pick, VERY good starter with the second pick, quality starter with the 3rd pick and another all pro with the 4th pick.  They went from 7-9 to a team that was a fluke TD away from the Super Bowl in large part because of that draft.  

[CWood21]

22 hours ago, SSG said:

But he doesn't have Adams skill set, not even close.  That's why Adams was a record setting WR in college and MVS couldn't even be considered mediocre given the terrible production he had over his 4 year career.  

Davante Adams was the only legitimate WR on the Fresno State roster, and Carr's by far favorite target.  In his only 2 years in Fresno State, he had 233 receptions.  In MVS, last 2 years at USF he had 77.  Playing with Carr versus playing with a RB masquerading as a QB goes a LONG way.

[CWood21]

11 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Like Cwood has said...a ton....neither he, nor I, are against taking a WR in the draft.  Let's just do it where the value appears to be best.  And that isn't in round one.  Perhaps round 2, but with this particular class, there should be a lot of defensive guys sitting there with higher grades than WR's.  So...then you go into free agency.  The key there is to find value.  While I would like a Tate kind of player, that kind of player will come with a high price tag.  And that's what I don't want.

It is okay to feel good about ESB and MVS while still wanting a little more on the roster...I'd argue that would be more for insurance.  The rest of the arguing over MVS?  Semantics.  Yes he got touches early because of lack of options.  Yes he has produced.  Yes he has been passed by ESB and maybe Kumerow has even caught up to him.  I'll go with rookie wall.  This is all okay and not a reason to be overly down on MVS...it should lead to a little more excitement over ESB and even Kumerow.

Very much this.  I'm not opposed to taking a WR if there is value there.  I just find it hard to believe that with the way the draft is shaping up that a WR is going to be the best value in the 2nd round.

[mikemike778]

22 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Very much this.  I'm not opposed to taking a WR if there is value there.  I just find it hard to believe that with the way the draft is shaping up that a WR is going to be the best value in the 2nd round.

Ok so if the value is in defence then what do you do ? Spend all your premium picks on defence ? What about next year, if the value is in defence, do we go all-out defence again. What then ?  Plug in more old regressing vets into the offence and/or hope late round projects work out.

You have to play offense as well. 

The situation is that the offense is playing against players that are generally younger than them and more talented than them. Rodgers is paid a lot of money and hasn't played up to his deal this year but he is being asked to make up for the deficiencies in the rest of the offence.

The offence relies on timing, rhythm and chemistry. Constantly plugging in regressing vets who aren't going to even be here long enough to build any connection isn't the answer all the time. 

Value is important but if you don't draft a player then someone else will. Do you really want the offense to be full of players that other teams didn't want to draft  ?

[OneTwoSixFive]

On 12/20/2018 at 8:41 PM, SSG said:

Though we certainly didn't get immediate production, 05 with Rodgers and Collins were home runs. 

We did well with our first 2 picks in 2014.  HHCD and Davante Adams.  HHCD was a serviceable starter.  Adams production wasn't great as a rookie but it didn't need to be.  We had the #1 offense in the league with multiple all pro caliber WRs that were a big reason AR12 won his second MVP award.  

Since 2014, it's been rough sledding.  We may do good with one of those picks but we ended up bombing the other.  

 

Could only dream to have a 2017 Saints type of draft.  All pro caliber player with the first pick, VERY good starter with the second pick, quality starter with the 3rd pick and another all pro with the 4th pick.  They went from 7-9 to a team that was a fluke TD away from the Super Bowl in large part because of that draft.  

With so many needs on the team, some of them critical, I still think that the 2019 season is the one where we see what we have in rookies MVS and ESB, now they have a years experience in the league. My WR target for 2019 is not a draft pick, it is the Jets FA (after 2018) Jermaine Kearse, who more or less takes the place of Cobb.

That high end WR you are looking for seems more likely to be taken in the following draft (ie 2020), by which time the Packers should have a good handle on how good the two rooks are. That allows high picks at edge rusher, offensive tackle, safety, TE, guard, RB, six picks that would take you to the end of round four. Obviously you don't agree with this take, but it's what i think at this time.

Edited December 22, 2018 by OneTwoSixFive

[Rodjahs12]

If DK Metcalf is there at the Saints pick there’s a good chance he’d be the BPA for me 

[pacman5252]

Looking at the timeline for this team, we should be snagging a wr now, so in 2020/2021 when our pass rusher we take early develops, AR is not 40, we have experience and synergy on O. You can draft starting OL, ILBs, S, DTs in round 1/2. Getting immediate impact wr is hard. Outside Adams, we might have the worst receivers in the nfl and there is too much blind hope the 2019 4th-6th  round project wrs pan out and turn good.

[MacReady]

1 hour ago, pacman5252 said:

there is too much blind hope the 2019 4th-6th  round project wrs pan out and turn good.

ESB is currently 15th in receptions for a rookie receiver drafted in the 6th round since 1980.  With 5 more catches in the final two games, he would finish 9th in receptions for a rookie receiver drafted in the 6th round. 

He's 14th in yards, too.  With 60 yards over the final two games, he's 8th overall. 

MVS is currently 10th in receptions (5th round rookie season since 1980).  With 4 receptions over the final 2 games, he moves into 7th on that list.  He's 10th in yards. 

You don't understand the meaning of blind hope. 

[MacReady]

Let's look at how the teams who are competing for a Super Bowl have built their receiving talent:

Saints:

Free agents - Ted Ginn, 3 year 11 million deal. 
Undrafted - About 3.
Tre'Quan Smith - 3rd round.
Michael Thomas - 2nd round.
Alvin Kamara - 2nd round.

First round picks on the roster include Ginn, Ingram, Watson.  Only one of them the Saints drafted, and they drafted him 7 years ago. 

They do have two OT drafted in the first round.  One of them moved to guard and has gone from bust to good player (another reason why you pick OT over OG because a busted OG can't do much while a busted OT can often have a good career inside).

Chiefs:

No first round skill position players except for those they signed in free agency.  Arguably the best receiving corps in the NFL.  Third round TE, late round WRs, mid round RBs...

Texans:

One late first round pick at skill position.  One first round WR on IR.  One first round receiver traded for. 

I could keep going. 

The Seahawks have nothing as far as first round skill positions. 

Vikings/Bears have busts for WRs selected in round one and then free agent/late round players wildly better than the busts. 

Ravens tried for like a good 6 year stretch fixing their WR problems by drafting first round receivers and they're worse off than anybody. 

Chargers have one, but their best options are still 2/3 round picks. 
Steelers are a great team to prove my point.  Look at their receivers and where/how they got them.
Cowboys traded for Cooper after cutting their first round WR before the season started.  Cooper is currently bad Cooper, exactly like I said he would be.  The dude runs hot or cold more than any receiver I have ever watched.  Followed up 217 yards with 32 yards. 

Bottom Line:

I personally think that a second round WR is fine, that a third round TE is fine.  No issues with that whatsoever.  Anyone who wants to suggest we should take one with our second first round pick is having a problem with that classic want versus need thing. 

Our rookie receivers are having historically overperforming seasons for their draft slot.  I believe if we have faith in them growing, they will pay off.  I expect both of them to be monstrous threats next year with a dark horse in there as well (Moore). 

I've said already that I'm fine with a WR addition in free agency.  I think Humphries is the biggest no-brainer signing we could possibly have this offseason. 

Making it easier on Rodgers is a plus considering his (insert long rant).  Doing that at the cost of getting true value in this draft at EDGE/DL/OT/DB?  No damn thank you. 

 

[CWood21]

18 hours ago, mikemike778 said:

Ok so if the value is in defence then what do you do ? Spend all your premium picks on defence ? What about next year, if the value is in defence, do we go all-out defence again. What then ?  Plug in more old regressing vets into the offence and/or hope late round projects work out.

You have to play offense as well. 

The situation is that the offense is playing against players that are generally younger than them and more talented than them. Rodgers is paid a lot of money and hasn't played up to his deal this year but he is being asked to make up for the deficiencies in the rest of the offence.

The offence relies on timing, rhythm and chemistry. Constantly plugging in regressing vets who aren't going to even be here long enough to build any connection isn't the answer all the time. 

Value is important but if you don't draft a player then someone else will. Do you really want the offense to be full of players that other teams didn't want to draft  ?

I've got a few draft philosophies that I stick to relatively firmly.  Obviously there's a few exceptions.  In the first round, I'm taking either a QB, OT, or a defensive player.  Point blank.  There are very few exceptions in which I'd consider going elsewhere.  The only RBs I'd even consider going with in the first round would be an elite RB (i.e. Saquon Barkley, Ezekiel Elliott, etc.) and the board better be damn near obliterated to doing so.  And I think I'd have to be in a situation where I didn't have an elite QB like Rodgers in play.  In 2016, when the Cowboys took Ezekiel Elliot 4th overall, they left Jalen Ramsey and Ronnie Stanley who were more valuable picks.  Given the fact that they had Tyron Smith I understand passing on Stanley.  But I'd take Jalen Ramsey over Ezekiel Elliott in a heartbeat.  I'm not sure there's a scenario in which I'd take a WR or TE in the first round.  You'd have to be looking at an elite-level talent, and the board obliterated again.  And I'd probably shop my pick like hell.

Day 2 you're more willing to take WR/TE/RB, but again you're not passing over them for a player at a more valuable position (i.e. CB, EDGE, etc.).  At what point do you sacrifice your defense for your offense?  You're not going to fix all of the problems in one offseason.  You'll pick and choose which ones are most important.

[CWood21]

5 hours ago, pacman5252 said:

Looking at the timeline for this team, we should be snagging a wr now, so in 2020/2021 when our pass rusher we take early develops, AR is not 40, we have experience and synergy on O. You can draft starting OL, ILBs, S, DTs in round 1/2. Getting immediate impact wr is hard. Outside Adams, we might have the worst receivers in the nfl and there is too much blind hope the 2019 4th-6th  round project wrs pan out and turn good.

Blind hope is getting absolutely nothing out of our young WRs and expecting them to be productive in 2019.  As Outpost just said, that isn't the case.

[firstplace]

I think it is more important to "hit" on any of the picks. I myself would not attach a certain pick to any position. Many really good players are taken in later rounds. The draft is a lot of luck. Take what it give you.

[mikemike778]

3 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I've got a few draft philosophies that I stick to relatively firmly.  Obviously there's a few exceptions.  In the first round, I'm taking either a QB, OT, or a defensive player.  Point blank.  There are very few exceptions in which I'd consider going elsewhere.  The only RBs I'd even consider going with in the first round would be an elite RB (i.e. Saquon Barkley, Ezekiel Elliott, etc.) and the board better be damn near obliterated to doing so.  And I think I'd have to be in a situation where I didn't have an elite QB like Rodgers in play.  In 2016, when the Cowboys took Ezekiel Elliot 4th overall, they left Jalen Ramsey and Ronnie Stanley who were more valuable picks.  Given the fact that they had Tyron Smith I understand passing on Stanley.  But I'd take Jalen Ramsey over Ezekiel Elliott in a heartbeat.  I'm not sure there's a scenario in which I'd take a WR or TE in the first round.  You'd have to be looking at an elite-level talent, and the board obliterated again.  And I'd probably shop my pick like hell.

Day 2 you're more willing to take WR/TE/RB, but again you're not passing over them for a player at a more valuable position (i.e. CB, EDGE, etc.).  At what point do you sacrifice your defense for your offense?  You're not going to fix all of the problems in one offseason.  You'll pick and choose which ones are most important.

I don't have a problem with going with a defensive player in the first round. 

But I do believe in relatively balanced drafts. Personally I would want to target a skill player in the first two days (on average) and I would want to be drafting OL on average in the first five rounds each year. 

This year if we drafted WR in the second round and used the other picks in the first two days on defence then we would have a draft that was heavily weighted towards defence (not going to do the sums but would probably work out about 90% defence given the value of 1st rounders). I don't see how a draft that is 90% weighted towards defence is sacrificing your defence for your offence. in fact its pretty crazy to suggest that. 

And again how do you define more important ?   When we were stocking up our offence with weapons for Aaron from the draft then we had a good team. When we stopped doing that and just drafted defensive players with pretty much every pick, we then had a bad team. Maybe you regard getting draft value from some draft position chart or something as being the most important thing in the draft. I regard having a good team as being more important. Obviously that's very simplistic. But the facts are that when we stopped drafting offence our offence got considerably worse and we stopped winning games.