Consensus Bust?

[Danger]

2 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

Actuallt I think Murray is very promising. Besides body concerns such as height and weight, he has no flaws what so ever. He literally does everything perfect. Super accurate on all three levels, best release of this draft class (amazing how much it pops), top three arm easily, and was the best under pressure in college football. 

Look at the perfect green circle for Murray. I’ve never seen a flawless QB graded by them before. He should go #1. Haskins should go around 35-40. But QBs get pushed up. 

I'm not faulting Murray's ability as a passer. My concern is his ability to stay on the field.

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, Danger said:

I'm going to be honest. People hating on Metcalf come across just as being contrarians.

Injury history, ball drops, only straight line speed.

I legitimately don't see what he has to offer other than size and athleticism.  He's Stephen Hill. 

[Danger]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Injury history, ball drops, only straight line speed.

I legitimately don't see what he has to offer other than size and athleticism.  He's Stephen Hill. 

2 hours ago, Danger said:

2 hours ago, aceinthehouse said:

Rumor is Redskins don't care much for DK Metcalf.

Don't know if it's because he interviewed bad, or because his shuttle time was slower than Jabba the Hut.

Don't think it's too much of a concern personally.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/d-k-metcalf

Quote

Change of Direction Skills –Lateral quickness and explosiveness out of breaks are hallmarks of his game. Will snap hard off of stem and carries speed, creating a headache for defenders to stay attached with playing overhead. Loose hips provide ample swing back to his passer despite high speed.

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Release - Exceptionally nuanced with his technique to get off the line of scrimmage and beat press coverage. Illustrates a variety of handwork and footwork to get into his route stem and manipulate coverage. Dominates in the contact window and often puts corners in a blender. Obvious strength of this game.

Play Speed - Has explosive speed that puts considerable stress on opponents to turn and run with him vertically. Capable of dictating corners with his ability to drive his release and in and out of his breaks. A true three level threat on account of his speed and athleticism.

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Speed/Burst - Special burst and long speed for a receiver his size. Able to stack defensive backs in a flash, creating early vertical separation off the line of scrimmage. Eats up ground with eye-popping long strides. Second gear to detach when the ball is in the air was on display all season until his injury, consistently accelerated away from corners in almost every game.

Releases - Majority of the time, runs through press coverage as if it doesn't exist. Violent and nuanced with his hand usage at the line of scrimmage, swatting away punches and knocking defensive backs off balance early in the rep. Ability to vary releases and footwork at the line of scrimmage is top-notch, as are natural tools to separate. As the route tree diversifies, this area of his game will become even more important. Only concern is that his releases can be more efficient at times, less wasted steps.

 

[roger murdock]

On 3/31/2019 at 5:49 PM, BleedTheClock said:

It seems like every year there is somebody that everyone HATES. A land mine, if you will, hiding among the 1st round prospects.

2015: People were low on Vic Beasley and Ereck Flowers

2016: People were low on Leonard Floyd

2017: People were low on Mitch Trubisky & Deshaun Watson

2018: People were low on Josh Allen

 

I haven't seen any prospect in the 1st round that is universally disliked this season. Do you find that to be the case or is the forum generally sour on one of the guys out there?

I remember people loving Vic Beasley. He was my #1 overall pick that year. I remember people on Browns board loving him and wanting him to fall.

2015: Shelton for being fat and getting pushed around and playing on skates. Perrimen for being nothing but fast. Some people loved Fowler but a lot didnt like his pass rushing productivity or quick twitch athleticism.

2016: This draft was loaded. I remember lots of concerns about Floyd. In hindsight looks like first bad pick was us with Coleman.

2017: People weren't calling John Ross a first round bust because people weren't calling him a first rounder until Bengals made it happen. Again another loaded class. Lots didn't like Watson (pass velocity) and Mahommes (pocket presence/mechanics).

2018: Josh Allen and to a less extent Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson

2019: Metkalf and Gary maybe?

[Cuziam71]

Haskins will be a bust.   Idk why people hate Lock that much.  A decent qb coach and right system he will flourish. Best upside of all the QBs. 

[BleedTheClock]

4 hours ago, Cuziam71 said:

Haskins will be a bust.   Idk why people hate Lock that much.  A decent qb coach and right system he will flourish. Best upside of all the QBs. 

How about some analysis with this bad take? I'd like to see why Haskins is going to be a bust.

Oh, or a take about why Eli Manning doesn't suck that doesn't involve using his OL as a scapegoat for every one of his deficiencies.

[HoboRocket]

3 hours ago, Cuziam71 said:

Haskins will be a bust.   Idk why people hate Lock that much.  A decent qb coach and right system he will flourish. Best upside of all the QBs. 

Lock reminds me a lot of Carson Palmer, and he seems to have the "it" factor. Took his team to new heights, but the argument could be made that Haskins did, as well. 

Honestly, from a talent perspective, Rosen > Haskins. Rosen ran faster in the 40 and had a better vertical, and those are the only workouts Haskins did. Rosen actually had a decent shuttle and a 3-cone better than DK Metcalf. He's taller, has shown more toughness, has larger hands while also sporting shorter arms - all plusses in my book. He can throw the ball further and has a tighter spiral, as well. 

Rosen had some better comebacks than Haskins, who also played in an extremely QB-friendly scheme and actually was on the very low end of the air yards per Target among QB prospects this year. He had noticeably more yards per attempt than air yards, a concerning sign that stats were inflated by a large amount of screens and checkdowns - layups, if you will. Rosen played in a scheme that was not very QB friendly at UCLA - actually very weak in comparison to many advanced college offenses - but still showed tremendous talent and had some outstanding games. Now, in review of Rosen's tape, it looked like the various Cardinals coaches basically completely removed those "layups" from the playbook. Bad supporting cast, bad coaching, and yes, he did make mistakes. If you watch the games chronologically, though, you'll notice that it was rare that Rosen made the same mistake twice. In fact, at the end of the season, it looked like the vast majority of the lack of success was due to a team that had quit on its head coach - though Rosen hadn't. He still had a mostly average season as far as his play goes in comparison to the other rookie QBs - he had more TDs than Allen and less INTs than Darnold, with a completion percentage that was in the middle of the two.

Another great aspect of Rosen's game - I actually didn't see that many bad misses. His accuracy actually seemed to be mostly pretty good. He did make some bad reads, but seemed to progress as far as the cerebral part of his game goes. He started to make good reads and good checks are the line of scrimmage, but it just wasn't happening fast enough. He also still looks to have a high ceiling, because at least half of his struggles as far as personal play goes were having to do with processing speed. In a simpler system, he would've had much more success. The good news is that, with an off-season of work, the speed at which he works should improve nicely. 

Now, I'm not saying Haskins will be a bad NFL QB. I'm just saying he's not actually better than Rosen from a talent or scouting perspective, in my opinion. His production will depend a lot on where he lands, and if a team like New York would rather have Haskins at 6 than Rosen with a low second, or even number 17 overall, they would be making a mistake.

[BayRaider]

19 minutes ago, HoboRocket said:

Lock reminds me a lot of Carson Palmer, and he seems to have the "it" factor. Took his team to new heights, but the argument could be made that Haskins did, as well. 

Honestly, from a talent perspective, Rosen > Haskins. Rosen ran faster in the 40 and had a better vertical, and those are the only workouts Haskins did. Rosen actually had a decent shuttle and a 3-cone better than DK Metcalf. He's taller, has shown more toughness, has larger hands while also sporting shorter arms - all plusses in my book. He can throw the ball further and has a tighter spiral, as well. 

Rosen had some better comebacks than Haskins, who also played in an extremely QB-friendly scheme and actually was on the very low end of the air yards per Target among QB prospects this year. He had noticeably more yards per attempt than air yards, a concerning sign that stats were inflated by a large amount of screens and checkdowns - layups, if you will. Rosen played in a scheme that was not very QB friendly at UCLA - actually very weak in comparison to many advanced college offenses - but still showed tremendous talent and had some outstanding games. Now, in review of Rosen's tape, it looked like the various Cardinals coaches basically completely removed those "layups" from the playbook. Bad supporting cast, bad coaching, and yes, he did make mistakes. If you watch the games chronologically, though, you'll notice that it was rare that Rosen made the same mistake twice. In fact, at the end of the season, it looked like the vast majority of the lack of success was due to a team that had quit on its head coach - though Rosen hadn't. He still had a mostly average season as far as his play goes in comparison to the other rookie QBs - he had more TDs than Allen and less INTs than Darnold, with a completion percentage that was in the middle of the two.

Another great aspect of Rosen's game - I actually didn't see that many bad misses. His accuracy actually seemed to be mostly pretty good. He did make some bad reads, but seemed to progress as far as the cerebral part of his game goes. He started to make good reads and good checks are the line of scrimmage, but it just wasn't happening fast enough. He also still looks to have a high ceiling, because at least half of his struggles as far as personal play goes were having to do with processing speed. In a simpler system, he would've had much more success. The good news is that, with an off-season of work, the speed at which he works should improve nicely. 

Now, I'm not saying Haskins will be a bad NFL QB. I'm just saying he's not actually better than Rosen from a talent or scouting perspective, in my opinion. His production will depend a lot on where he lands, and if a team like New York would rather have Haskins at 6 than Rosen with a low second, or even number 17 overall, they would be making a mistake.

Can evaluate talent all you want but sometimes when talent gets to the pro level, they don’t process as fast. Nathan Peterman and Josh Rosen are examples of this. Amazing college QBs who processed fast but at the pro level they are probably the slowest mental processors at the position right now. 

[HoboRocket]

4 hours ago, BayRaider said:

Can evaluate talent all you want but sometimes when talent gets to the pro level, they don’t process as fast. Nathan Peterman and Josh Rosen are examples of this. Amazing college QBs who processed fast but at the pro level they are probably the slowest mental processors at the position right now. 

I don't know about bottom-2, but definitely one of the slower ones. Totally. And like I said, that was at least half of his personal struggles as a player independent of scheme, coaches, surrounding talent. He absolutely has to speed up the process, but we've seen him do it before, and that's why I'm holding out hope. 

I could see the merits of an unknown in Dwayne Haskins, who has never played an NFL snap, versus Josh Rosen, where you know where his floor is. I was simply bullish on Rosen last year and I'm still confident in his ability because of the situation. If he continues to struggle without much improvement, then I'll stop believing.

[BleedTheClock]

On 4/5/2019 at 3:28 PM, Daniel said:

Injury history, ball drops, only straight line speed.

I legitimately don't see what he has to offer other than size and athleticism.  He's Stephen Hill. 

Stephen Hill?  Dude, there is film on YouTube. Go watch Stephen Hill and DK Metcalf & then try to formulate a better opinion. If you can’t see the difference, I don’t know what to tell u; you’re beyond saving. 

 

Metcalf has his issues for sure, but a Stephen Hill comparison is just goofy. 

[BayRaider]

35 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Stephen Hill?  Dude, there is film on YouTube. Go watch Stephen Hill and DK Metcalf & then try to formulate a better opinion. If you can’t see the difference, I don’t know what to tell u; you’re beyond saving. 

 

Metcalf has his issues for sure, but a Stephen Hill comparison is just goofy. 

I think Stephen A Smith is a more fair comparison. 

[smokeybandit]

Gary and Haskins

[pnies20]

It’s Metcalf for me. 

[pacman5252]

I’d say Gary, Haskins (kind of reminds me of check down same Bradford), Lock.

I also don’t think guys like Greedy and Burns are safe

[MSURacerDT55]

Make sure we bookmark this so that we can revisit this for all of the Haskins haters