2019 Cornerback Coffee Talk, no big whoop...

[Ozzy]

4 hours ago, Virginia Viking said:

You and I must be watching two different Anthony Harris's.  The one I remember watching is all over the place making plays.

How many Pro Bowls has he made?  How many All Pro teams?  If you want average then yeah he is great, if just playing as a pro is amazing then yes he is amazing.  I had him as one of the highest rated safeties coming into his draft year.  He is not a top 25 safeties in the NFL I feel and would not start a ton of other teams, and has not even came close to reaching his potential on the field.  When Harrison is out there is a giant hole in that defense, if Harris is gone at times one does not even notice, if say Kearse became the starter he makes more of an impact at times in the game.

Harris is good, he is just not great and hopefully he can actually take that next step this year and become great.

 

 

3 hours ago, Klomp said:

The thing with Wingard is he's much more of an in-the-box safety who could almost play a LB/S hybrid probably. Epps has a more versatile S skill set.

True if one views coverage as being versatile, Wingard can tackle and to me tackling is harder to do than covering from a deep safety spot.  Now will Wingard be able to tackle like he did in college who knows, but he was a boss tackling in college at times and if that translates over give me the superior tackler to the guy who has decent deep coverage skills but not great long term potential.

 

[swede700]

6 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

How many Pro Bowls has he made?  How many All Pro teams?  If you want average then yeah he is great, if just playing as a pro is amazing then yes he is amazing.  I had him as one of the highest rated safeties coming into his draft year.  He is not a top 25 safeties in the NFL I feel and would not start a ton of other teams, and has not even came close to reaching his potential on the field.  When Harrison is out there is a giant hole in that defense, if Harris is gone at times one does not even notice, if say Kearse became the starter he makes more of an impact at times in the game.

Harris is good, he is just not great and hopefully he can actually take that next step this year and become great.

 

 

True if one views coverage as being versatile, Wingard can tackle and to me tackling is harder to do than covering from a deep safety spot.  Now will Wingard be able to tackle like he did in college who knows, but he was a boss tackling in college at times and if that translates over give me the superior tackler to the guy who has decent deep coverage skills but not great long term potential.

 

That's how your judging whether a guy has an impact?  Pro Bowls and All-Pro designations?  That's an awfully high bar, which eliminates about 98% of the league.

[Ozzy]

24 minutes ago, swede700 said:

That's how your judging whether a guy has an impact?  Pro Bowls and All-Pro designations?  That's an awfully high bar, which eliminates about 98% of the league.

True but I had him rated very highly in the safety class he came out with, thus I expect a little more out of him to be honest.  Not quite sure he has reached a solid consistent starter yet, Pro bowl might never happen for him sure but I think he could be a lot better player and hopefully he shows that this year.  He had his best year last season with the most starts so will see how is this year as a consistent starter for the first time in his career.  In 2015 and 2016 when he was in the game he was over his head a little I thought and sure did some things last year but has never been many wow type plays.

[Krauser]

Harris has been very good. He's not an All Pro but he's a good safety. He's made a number of nice plays in coverage, he's a decent tackler, and he forced a fumble at the goalline vs the Rams in 2017 that turned the tide of that game. He hasn't made many mistakes. 

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

When Harrison is out there is a giant hole in that defense, if Harris is gone at times one does not even notice, if say Kearse became the starter he makes more of an impact at times in the game.

Harrison Smith played almost every snap of the season the last 2 years, so I guess the giant hole is the 2 games he missed late in 2016?

Ant Harris didn't become a 1st string starter until last year, and didn't miss any time after becoming a starter, so I"m not sure what you're thinking of in imagining the defense with him "gone". When Harris played as a backup, he had a couple of really nice games, including the Rams game in 2017 when Sendejo was out. Last year once he was starting, he was better than Sendejo or Iloka had been earlier in the year. He had a huge game in Soldier Field, with 2 interceptions, which should've been enough to win that game if the offense hadn't been terrible. Harris tied with Smith for the team lead in INTs with 3, playing a little over half the snaps last year.

Not sure Kearse has started a game since the Halloween loss in Chicago in 2016, where he missed a tackle on a long TD by Jordan Howard. He's looked good in the preseason this year. 

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Wingard can tackle and to me tackling is harder to do than covering from a deep safety spot.  Now will Wingard be able to tackle like he did in college who knows, but he was a boss tackling in college at times and if that translates over give me the superior tackler to the guy who has decent deep coverage skills but not great long term potential.

Pretty sure Mike Zimmer would disagree with you on the value of coverage vs tackling ability for a safety in his defense, especially a safety who plays next to Harrison Smith, who's one of the best in the league in the box and at the line of scrimmage. 

[JDBrocks]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

True but I had him rated very highly in the safety class he came out with, thus I expect a little more out of him to be honest.  Not quite sure he has reached a solid consistent starter yet, Pro bowl might never happen for him sure but I think he could be a lot better player and hopefully he shows that this year.  He had his best year last season with the most starts so will see how is this year as a consistent starter for the first time in his career.  In 2015 and 2016 when he was in the game he was over his head a little I thought and sure did some things last year but has never been many wow type plays.

Why base your assessment of veteran players on your pre draft evaluations of them? That doesn’t make any sense. Once a player becomes a professional, their college career and scouting evals have little to no value, and whatever value they have diminishes the longer they are pros.

Anthony Harris has gone from UDFA to starter. He’s made enough splash plays and has been fundamentally sound enough to win a starting spot in a Zimmer defense. That is how his professional career should be evaluated.

[Ozzy]

12 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Harris has been very good. He's not an All Pro but he's a good safety. He's made a number of nice plays in coverage, he's a decent tackler, and he forced a fumble at the goalline vs the Rams in 2017 that turned the tide of that game. He hasn't made many mistakes. 

Harrison Smith played almost every snap of the season the last 2 years, so I guess the giant hole is the 2 games he missed late in 2016?

Ant Harris didn't become a 1st string starter until last year, and didn't miss any time after becoming a starter, so I"m not sure what you're thinking of in imagining the defense with him "gone". When Harris played as a backup, he had a couple of really nice games, including the Rams game in 2017 when Sendejo was out. Last year once he was starting, he was better than Sendejo or Iloka had been earlier in the year. He had a huge game in Soldier Field, with 2 interceptions, which should've been enough to win that game if the offense hadn't been terrible. Harris tied with Smith for the team lead in INTs with 3, playing a little over half the snaps last year.

Not sure Kearse has started a game since the Halloween loss in Chicago in 2016, where he missed a tackle on a long TD by Jordan Howard. He's looked good in the preseason this year. 

Pretty sure Mike Zimmer would disagree with you on the value of coverage vs tackling ability for a safety in his defense, especially a safety who plays next to Harrison Smith, who's one of the best in the league in the box and at the line of scrimmage. 

Where does Harris rank then on the defense in general, all starters included he is what the 9th or 10th best player on the defense?  But you all defend him like he is the 2nd or 3rd best player on the D?  To say he does not need to improve, well he does, sure played ok last year and if you are all ok with that great but he needs to take it up a notch for this team to be a better defensive unit.  Getting two INTs in one game does not mean you are a great player, rather you were in the right place at the right time, need to see that happen a lot more as a full time starter of course.  Sendejo was nothing great but not sure Harris has played better than Andrew did at points in his career even though Andrew is on the decline because of age and injuries arguably.

Is Harris better than all of these safeties in the NFL?  I would say no regardless of position of FS or SS, so hopefully Harris can take his play to another level this year.

 

Budda Baker
DJ Swearinger
Micah Hyde
Jordan Poyer
Keau Neal
Tony Jefferson
Earl Thomas
Ha Ha Clinton-Dix
Eddie Jackson
Eric Reid
Kevin Byrad
Landon Collins
Malcolm Jenkins
Rodney McLeod
Jamal Adams
Von Bell
Jabrill Peppers
Patrick Chung
Devin McCourty
John Johnson III
Eric Weddle
Reshan Jones
Lamarcus Joyner
Desmond King
Adrian Phillips
Derwin James
Tyrann Mathieu
Malik Hooker
Justin Simmons
Shawn Williams
Jessie Bates
Minkah Fitzpatrick
Johnathan Cyprien

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

Why base your assessment of veteran players on your pre draft evaluations of them? That doesn’t make any sense. Once a player becomes a professional, their college career and scouting evals have little to no value, and whatever value they have diminishes the longer they are pros.

Anthony Harris has gone from UDFA to starter. He’s made enough splash plays and has been fundamentally sound enough to win a starting spot in a Zimmer defense. That is how his professional career should be evaluated.

Says someone that clearly never watched him play in college or watch any players play in college.  Is that correct?  How does my opinion of them supposed to change when they have not even played enough to prove much otherwise?  So because I have seen and watched them earlier in their career, have an opinion about them in terms of their potential and their future, now because they are a pro I should just forget all of that because college football does not matter?   No thank you.
 

[JDBrocks]

He’s been in the NFL longer than he was in college now. His most recent performance absolutely, unequivocally, categorically means more than anything he ever did in college. Whatever you or anyone else thought his potential was as a prospect is 100% irrelevant. Period.

He’s a starter in one of the best defenses in the NFL, and he had to earn that.

[Krauser]

5 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Where does Harris rank then on the defense in general, all starters included he is what the 9th or 10th best player on the defense?  But you all defend him like he is the 2nd or 3rd best player on the D? 

Harris was better last year than Rhodes and Waynes, and better than Kendricks, and better than Griffen and Weatherly, and better than Gedeon if you consider him a starter. He wasn’t a valuable as some of those players, because they play more important positions, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t good. 

The defense wasn’t great last year, but Harris was not the problem. Their DL was only OK, and got washed out against the run, Rhodes had a bad year, Smith wasn’t at his best, and Kendricks struggled. 

7 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Is Harris better than all of these safeties in the NFL?

A couple of those guys (Desmond King, Minkah Fitzpatrick) play slot corner, and you’ve a bunch of different types of safeties listed that are hard to directly compare. 

No one’s saying Harris is Earl Thomas or Derwin James. Obviously there are lots of players better than him. That doesn’t mean he isn’t good.

I do watch the NFCN closely enough to have an opinion of how he stacks up there. Last year, I’d say he was the 4th best starting safety in the division, ahead of both Lions and Packers starters, and behind Smith and both Bears starters. 4th out of 8 in the division is probably about where he ranks across the league. 

[Ozzy]

11 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Harris was better last year than Rhodes and Waynes, and better than Kendricks, and better than Griffen and Weatherly, and better than Gedeon if you consider him a starter. He wasn’t a valuable as some of those players, because they play more important positions, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t good. 

The defense wasn’t great last year, but Harris was not the problem. Their DL was only OK, and got washed out against the run, Rhodes had a bad year, Smith wasn’t at his best, and Kendricks struggled. 

A couple of those guys (Desmond King, Minkah Fitzpatrick) play slot corner, and you’ve a bunch of different types of safeties listed that are hard to directly compare. 

No one’s saying Harris is Earl Thomas or Derwin James. Obviously there are lots of players better than him. That doesn’t mean he isn’t good.

I do watch the NFCN closely enough to have an opinion of how he stacks up there. Last year, I’d say he was the 4th best starting safety in the division, ahead of both Lions and Packers starters, and behind Smith and both Bears starters. 4th out of 8 in the division is probably about where he ranks across the league. 

I am aware at times Fitzpatrick plays slot corner and King but they are also a FS at times.  Just like Joyner plays the slot corner a lot I would still consider him a safety over being a slot corner.  Just because you can play slot corner as a safety does not always mean you are a slot corner but sure Fitz and King could do both and King is a CB currently considering the corners they have on the roster after being a safety earlier in his career I believe.  Kearse is a safety but plays in the slot, does not mean he is a slot corner.

I know Harris was not the main reason for the defensive issues, never said he was.  Just as a player I hope he takes it up a notch this season and I still think he needs to show some more to be a proven starter in the NFL and needs to become consistent.  I would agree in the NFCN he is one of the better safeties but the Packers and Lions do not have great safety play, reason the Packers drafted one 1st round and Lions picked up one in the 3rd round.  League wide though there are plenty better than him I feel.  Sure he does not have to be Harrison Smith but I would want a much much better version of Sendejo honestly.

 

 

[swede700]

Where Harris ranks on this particular defense is utterly irrelevant on the evaluation of him.  On another defense, he might be the 2nd or 3rd best player on the defense, I don't know.  But, is not possible for someone to objectively evaluate an individual player and his impact when he's on the field?  

You always profess to do a lot of research on college prospects, which is awesome...I don't have the time nor the wherewithal to do so and I appreciate the effort you do put forth.  However, I do think you need to spend a little more time on evaluating what players do after they get to the NFL and let go of what you thought about them when they were in college.  That time is past.  As the old cliche goes, it doesn't matter whether they were a 1st rounder or a UDFA, once they're in the NFL for a few years, that no longer matters.  And what matters is that Harris has been very good when he's been on the field.

Edited September 6, 2019 by swede700

[Guest]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:07 PM, Ozzy said:

Where does Harris rank then on the defense in general, all starters included he is what the 9th or 10th best player on the defense?  But you all defend him like he is the 2nd or 3rd best player on the D?  To say he does not need to improve, well he does, sure played ok last year and if you are all ok with that great but he needs to take it up a notch for this team to be a better defensive unit. 

 

Who has said that he doesn't need to improve?  All players need to improve.  I think we are on opposite ends of a continuum.  You think he needs to be great...All Pro...a Pro Bowl participant.  I think he's better than he was when he was a rookie.  He didn't make a ton of mistakes last year.  He's a much better tackler than Sendejo.  He compliments Harrison pretty well.  That's impactful.

[VikeManDan]

Have a day Ant Harris!!!

[VikeManDan]

Any word on Mac injury?

[SemperFeist]

Just now, VikeManDan said:

Any word on Mac injury?

Reported as a dislocated elbow. MRI tomorrow. 

[vike daddy]

On 9/5/2019 at 5:07 PM, Ozzy said:

 Getting two INTs in one game does not mean you are a great player, rather [Anthony Harris] was in the right place at the right time, need to see that happen a lot more as a full time starter of course. 

uh huh....