2019 Cornerback Coffee Talk, no big whoop...

[swede700]

22 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said:

Who gets cut for Hill?

Likely either Davion Davis or Cam Smith, as was mentioned earlier.  

[Krauser]

I'll reply to this over here since it's more on topic

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

But Rhodes and Waynes have gotten beat constantly this season and they make little to no plays on the football and few interceptions or even deflections.  They get beat a lot and that has been a huge problem for this defense not being able to get off the field at times if the pass rush does not get home.

They don't get beat that often. 

The pass defense is still above average despite facing a pretty stellar set of opposing QBs (by passer rating: Rodgers 4th, Stafford 6th, Carr 7th, Ryan 12th, Keenum for a half 15th, and Wentz 17th are all average or better this year and Chase Daniel would be too if he had enough attempts). They haven't faced a truly incompetent QB aside from Haskins for a half. They haven't had a bad weather game.

The CBs haven't played well but some of their apparent struggles are due to what they're being asked to do -- not give up big plays. The Vikings are 6th in team YPA against and 12th in passing DVOA against. A significant part of the production they've allowed was given up by backups in the first month of the season. They've only allowed one team to score more than 21 or throw for more than 300 yards, and it took an excellent performance by Stafford and Marvin Jones to make that happen. 

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

Sure trading Rhodes will not happen but the fact is Waynes and Rhodes have sucked this year, especially Rhodes compared to what he once was.  Maybe Hill coming back will help but even when Hughes has gotten some run at CB out on the field or boundary side he has not held up either especially in contest jump ball situations.  We need a CB who can actually make a play on the football and fight for the ball or be quick enough to get ahead of the receiver. 

Would love Javon Kinlaw in the 1st round no doubt if a top line CB is not there and that is very possible to have happen.  Still CB has been the biggest weakness on the roster I feel this year especially since Waynes will most likely be gone next year and the backups have not been great either unless Hill is amazing or something, Alexander and Hughes have not shown the ability to play anything outside of slot corner honestly, and even that they are just ok at it so far.

Rhodes has fallen off, as I was pointing out this time last year.

Waynes has been only OK but not a big liability. He's had a couple of questionable DPI calls go against him where I thought he actually played pretty well. 

Alexander has been solid. He's a good slot corner.

Hughes is playing pretty well. He gave up a TD in the Lions game but has otherwise been good. He's only allowed 0.8 yards per coverage snap, which is good. He can play outside corner, his time there will come. He's only 22.

Hill was very good last year. We'll see how he fits into the team as he works back into the lineup. He should be quite a bit better than a typical CB5. 

So while Rhodes is falling off, the position group otherwise is still in good shape. They do need to give some of the depth more of a chance to play. But they actually have quality CB depth, so CB is not the weakest position group on the team. 

Zimmer has a long track record of coaching successful pass defenses. The Vikings this year have been a little below his usual standard, but they're not far off, and they have the talent to improve (as they did last year, starting around the middle of the year). I expect they'll be good enough by the end of the season to win with. 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Krauser said:

I'll reply to this over here since it's more on topic

They don't get beat that often. 

The pass defense is still above average despite facing a pretty stellar set of opposing QBs (by passer rating: Rodgers 4th, Stafford 6th, Carr 7th, Ryan 12th, Keenum for a half 15th, and Wentz 17th are all average or better this year and Chase Daniel would be too if he had enough attempts). They haven't faced a truly incompetent QB aside from Haskins for a half. They haven't had a bad weather game.

The CBs haven't played well but some of their apparent struggles are due to what they're being asked to do -- not give up big plays. The Vikings are 6th in team YPA against and 12th in passing DVOA against. A significant part of the production they've allowed was given up by backups in the first month of the season. They've only allowed one team to score more than 21 or throw for more than 300 yards, and it took an excellent performance by Stafford and Marvin Jones to make that happen. 

Rhodes has fallen off, as I was pointing out this time last year.

Waynes has been only OK but not a big liability. He's had a couple of questionable DPI calls go against him where I thought he actually played pretty well. 

Alexander has been solid. He's a good slot corner.

Hughes is playing pretty well. He gave up a TD in the Lions game but has otherwise been good. He's only allowed 0.8 yards per coverage snap, which is good. He can play outside corner, his time there will come. He's only 22.

Hill was very good last year. We'll see how he fits into the team as he works back into the lineup. He should be quite a bit better than a typical CB5. 

So while Rhodes is falling off, the position group otherwise is still in good shape. They do need to give some of the depth more of a chance to play. But they actually have quality CB depth, so CB is not the weakest position group on the team. 

Zimmer has a long track record of coaching successful pass defenses. The Vikings this year have been a little below his usual standard, but they're not far off, and they have the talent to improve (as they did last year, starting around the middle of the year). I expect they'll be good enough by the end of the season to win with. 

Maybe my issue is that people say the Vikings have such depth at CB, but looking down the road there are tons of question marks unless they cut some dudes to create some cap space.  Who do they sign out of Waynes, Harris, Alexander and Kearse?  Who are all free agents, possibly no one they can afford.  Basically starting outside corner and slot corner could be gone and that creates some massive holes not to mention at safety.  

So yeah my expectations for this season when they actually have them all signed and on the roster is pretty high.  Cannot imagine what it would look like with Rhodes, Hughes, and Hill at corner then safety with Smith and Epps and or a rookie at safety.  And who is the backup corners, Boyd and maybe a rookie?

 

10 defensive backs on the roster currently, 4 could all be gone next year and 3 of the 4 are starters from that group.  And that is out of the 5 DB package, so again 3 of them could be gone of the 5.  So to me they better play great this year while they got them all.  But maybe it is good moving on from Waynes but Rhodes has arguably been worse than he has this year.  Would be great to transition to Alexander as a starting outside corner and Hughes but again not sure either one could do that honestly but will see.

[Krauser]

As I said this spring, they can and should (and in fact did decide to) play out the year without worrying about the CB depth chart in 2020. This year will say a lot about who’s worth keeping and who they should let go.

My vote is that they should keep Alexander plus either Waynes (releasing Rhodes) or Rhodes at a renegotiated cheaper price. I think Waynes will outplay Rhodes over the next few years so I’d rather keep the 2 homegrown guys just finishing their rookie deals instead of the more expensive Rhodes who turns 30 next spring.

I think they’ll be able to afford to keep Harris at a Sendejo-ish price. I doubt they’ll try to keep Kearse but at this point he’s probably a one year vet minimum contract if they do, so they could afford to.

The Vikings have basically never lost a player they tried to retain, and I bet guys like Harris can appreciate how his success is tied to playing for Zimmer, so I think he’ll opt to stay.

Questions about next year shouldn’t really affect how we understand this year.

The panic the last couple of weeks about the CB play is overblown IMO, and just goes to show how much of the fan/media sports discussion ecosystem is driven by controversy for controversy’s sake. There’s not much to complain about the Vikings these days, so let’s fan the flames over a handful of bad plays.

Zimmer and his defense have never been perfect but they’ve been good for a long time. I think he knows what he’s doing. I’m sure he wants to give Rhodes a chance to bounce back over the next few weeks. If that’s not happening, I think we’ll see more of Hughes and/or Hill, maybe as early as the Dallas game.

In any case, I expect he’ll have the secondary playing well by the end of the year. 

[Torchezim]

7 hours ago, Krauser said:

As I said this spring, they can and should (and in fact did decide to) play out the year without worrying about the CB depth chart in 2020. This year will say a lot about who’s worth keeping and who they should let go.

My vote is that they should keep Alexander plus either Waynes (releasing Rhodes) or Rhodes at a renegotiated cheaper price. I think Waynes will outplay Rhodes over the next few years so I’d rather keep the 2 homegrown guys just finishing their rookie deals instead of the more expensive Rhodes who turns 30 next spring.

I think they’ll be able to afford to keep Harris at a Sendejo-ish price. I doubt they’ll try to keep Kearse but at this point he’s probably a one year vet minimum contract if they do, so they could afford to.

The Vikings have basically never lost a player they tried to retain, and I bet guys like Harris can appreciate how his success is tied to playing for Zimmer, so I think he’ll opt to stay.

Questions about next year shouldn’t really affect how we understand this year.

The panic the last couple of weeks about the CB play is overblown IMO, and just goes to show how much of the fan/media sports discussion ecosystem is driven by controversy for controversy’s sake. There’s not much to complain about the Vikings these days, so let’s fan the flames over a handful of bad plays.

Zimmer and his defense have never been perfect but they’ve been good for a long time. I think he knows what he’s doing. I’m sure he wants to give Rhodes a chance to bounce back over the next few weeks. If that’s not happening, I think we’ll see more of Hughes and/or Hill, maybe as early as the Dallas game.

In any case, I expect he’ll have the secondary playing well by the end of the year. 

...   Rhodes has fallen off a lot. His temper tantrums on the sideline every time he does play poorly only add to the need to get rid of him.  
 

If everyone was talking about the future of this season, that’s a different story. If Zimmer has his defense playing well by the end of the year, then that is something we can discuss then.  Until then, most people here are right: Rhodes has fallen off terribly. 

[Krauser]

12 minutes ago, Torchezim said:

...   Rhodes has fallen off a lot. His temper tantrums on the sideline every time he does play poorly only add to the need to get rid of him.  
 

If everyone was talking about the future of this season, that’s a different story. If Zimmer has his defense playing well by the end of the year, then that is something we can discuss then.  Until then, most people here are right: Rhodes has fallen off terribly. 

Rhodes fell off last year, as I said at the time. He’s not much worse now than he was last year. He might be able improve a little from this recent low, some of what he’s been giving up is from the scheme (McLaurin) while on others he’s nearly made good plays (Marvin Jones’ TDs especially the second one)  

Despite his struggles, the defense has been OK (at least, better than they were through the first half of last year).

They do have talented depth who can replace Rhodes — if not the 2017 version at least the 2018/19. Now that they’re all finally back from suspension/injuries, we’ll see how long Zimmer is willing to hang on with him before making a change. 

[CriminalMind]

There is talent on this roster to replace Rhodes in the lineup this year or next year. I'm guessing Zimmer is going to give him lots of ability to improve his current production now

[vikingsrule]

3 hours ago, CriminalMind said:

There is talent on this roster to replace Rhodes in the lineup this year or next year. I'm guessing Zimmer is going to give him lots of ability to improve his current production now

I think they have to get Hill up to speed but it would be nice to see him out there to spell Rhodes. I’m not convinced that Hughes has shown enough to warrant being a steady starter. It’s unlikely that both Rhodes and Waynes return next year so the more we can see of Hill or Hughes this year, the better.

i think Alexander has to be the priority to resign. He’s the only slot CB. Waynes and Rhodes are both average level starters, so do you overpay to keep Waynes and hope he can beocome a top 20 CB or keep the likely cheaper option in Rhodes and hope that Hughes or Hill can progress to Waynes level. 

Id almost prefer keeping Rhodes to avoid the contract Waynes is about to receive, just don’t think he’s worth it.

[swede700]

14 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

I’m not convinced that Hughes has shown enough to warrant being a steady starter.

I find that kinda odd, considering when he's been in there, he's arguably been the 2nd best CB (next to Mackensie)  the Vikings have had this year.  

[vikingsrule]

Just now, swede700 said:

I find that kinda odd, considering when he's been in there, he's arguably been the 2nd best CB (next to Mackensie)  the Vikings have had this year.  

We’ve not seen him on the field as a regular starter. That’s my main point. Can he take a majority of the reps at a boundary spot? He’s flashed and finally healthy so it’s probably an opportunity thing for him than a skill set concern. Best opportunity for him may be an extended injury to Rhodes or Waynes, not that I’m rooting for that.

[Uncle Buck]

This is interesting if it's true.

 

[vikesfan89]

30 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

This is interesting if it's true.

 

He hasn't given much for deep passes. It just seems like it's been too easy to complete short stuff on him

[vikingsrule]

44 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

This is interesting if it's true.

 

How many penalty yards has he given up relative to those CBs?

[Uncle Buck]

4 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

How many penalty yards has he given up relative to those CBs?

VERY good question.  That is probably not a pretty number.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Uncle Buck

[Uncle Buck]

4 hours ago, vikesfan89 said:

He hasn't given much for deep passes. It just seems like it's been too easy to complete short stuff on him

I'll take the short ones over the back breaking deep stuff.  I know we haven't been impressed with his play this year, but I just thought that comparison maybe made it not so bad somehow.  Zim seems to be ok with it so far.  At least he hasn't benched him yet.