LETSGOBROWNIES Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: I wouldn't know, I just use deodorant. A jealous liar I see. We all know they don't sell deodorant in WV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 2 hours ago, freakygeniuskid said: From PFF: "Haden’s first game in a new uniform coincidentally came against his former team. While he broke up a pass early on, the rest of his outing was average at best. He didn’t give up any major plays, but did allow six catches for 80 yards and a 106.3 passer rating into his coverage." Haden isn't good. Getting real tired of the national media narrative that letting him go was some sort of continued tanking. Those metrics can be deceiving....as it doesn't tell the story if the CB was in good or perfect position or completely beat and out of position during a completion, dropped pass, or incompletion... 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: InB4 Stillers fans tell us how well he played.... Or before I do...passes completed on a CB don't tell the full story as a metric.... After watching the all22, Joe took away 4 out 6 of the deep developing routes leading to Deshone's sacks. He only gave up the back shoulder throw but stayed on top of Corey Coleman and did everything he was suppose to do against a pump fake back shoulder throw for which there is no defense. He only gave up a fake wheel route to a RB...other than that he was in the hip pocket and a force all game. Joe played a really good game all things considered...that's just objectively the case....homerism on the steelers side leads to gross overevaluations like "Joe had a pro bowl game," just like it's a misperception and bias to say "Joe's game proved/showed why he should've been released as he was average or below average." Both are wrong; Joe played a really good game. We shall see if he can sustain it over time this season. There are reasons we know that make that unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I was waiting to see how long Mind would take to rush to Haden's defense. Everyone else sees an old CB who we should cut, and we do, save one person. Everyone else notices Haden has a bad game, including PFF, except one person. Absolutely no one can defend Haden's poor play, but Mind says: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 Lol, I'm pretty sure @Mind Character just likes to argue the against the consensus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Johnson Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 12 hours ago, CroBrown said: Had to register when I saw this. What you honestly believe is bull****, because your OLine held for days, especially Nassib, your QB tackled our defender, you've had multiple dirty and late hits(nothing is new in Pittsburgh), some of them should have been called for targeting. Your win today is also courtesy of two calls that have gone the other way in the past, a weak hook on AB and ABs "catch", both penalties I assure you, wouldn't have been called on the Steelers in a crucial stage of a game. This game was lost because of a ****up on ST and our inability to adjust to stop Antonio Brown, who was the only one who came to play. IMO, even if Gregg Williams did do enough for us to win, I still think he could have done more to stop him which would give us a chance to win, as Antonio Brown had at one point of the game, 11 rec/11 targets, which to me is a sign we are giving him far too much space. Proud of most of the team, they put up a solid fight but this Pittsburgh team looked like they were just going through the motions, won't get a better chance to beat them. Endless fire emojis Like my roommate who isn't a Browns fan said, the Steelers giving up 15 yards for dirty hits against a Browns team with little shot to capitalize on those penalties is a calculated trade off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Mind Character said: Those metrics can be deceiving....as it doesn't tell the story if the CB was in good or perfect position or completely beat and out of position during a completion, dropped pass, or incompletion... Or before I do...passes completed on a CB don't tell the full story as a metric.... After watching the all22, Joe took away 4 out 6 of the deep developing routes leading to Deshone's sacks. He only gave up the back shoulder throw but stayed on top of Corey Coleman and did everything he was suppose to do against a pump fake back shoulder throw for which there is no defense. He only gave up a fake wheel route to a RB...other than that he was in the hip pocket and a force all game. Joe played a really good game all things considered...that's just objectively the case....homerism on the steelers side leads to gross overevaluations like "Joe had a pro bowl game," just like it's a misperception and bias to say "Joe's game proved/showed why he should've been released as he was average or below average." Both are wrong; Joe played a really good game. We shall see if he can sustain it over time this season. There are reasons we know that make that unlikely. I still dont believe Joe played a good game. The DC used him pretty well. They used a lot of trail technique, meaning the steelers used a lot of over the top help with Joe Haden. With that trail technique it put Haden in position for those back shoulder type passes you are talking about. It wasnt joe making great plays, it was joe doing his assignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 4 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: A jealous liar I see. We all know they don't sell deodorant in WV. I live on the Ohio border smarty pants. Also the toothbrush was invented in West Virginia. (If it had been invented anywhere else it would have been called a teethbrush) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 7 hours ago, buno67 said: I still dont believe Joe played a good game. The DC used him pretty well. They used a lot of trail technique, meaning the steelers used a lot of over the top help with Joe Haden. With that trail technique it put Haden in position for those back shoulder type passes you are talking about. It wasnt joe making great plays, it was joe doing his assignment. I didn't necessarily say he made great plays. I said he played a really good game. Forcing multiple coverage sacks when the QB is looking your way for a big play but you're in a good position constitutes good to really good play in my mind. Great would mean he had multiple PBUs, FF, and/or INTs... It's true he mostly carried out his assignment I think if I used the word "Solid" you'd agree instead of me using "really good" to describe his play. Taking away deep shots that lead to sack is productive play though in my mind and hard to tell from the TV copy. Ultimately, my point was just that those using his game to suggest they were justified in saying he was "complete trash" or "still a pro bowl CB" are both wrong. He played well and it's too be seen how it turns out in the end; however, based on one game his arrow is pointing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 10 hours ago, MWil23 said: I was waiting to see how long Mind would take to rush to Haden's defense. Everyone else sees an old CB who we should cut, and we do, save one person. Everyone else notices Haden has a bad game, including PFF, except one person. Absolutely no one can defend Haden's poor play, but Mind says: Using PFF as evidence is often shaky. Sometimes their metrics can tell the story and can be a tool of understanding but other times they tell the complete opposite story due to the lack of context and the inability to capture the specificity of play realities snap by snap. That's why pro personnel people don't use PFF or but sometimes PFF sees things the same as them b/c they use metrics that sometimes include the analytics that pro personnel and analytics department use. Their grading methodology is not as rigorous or as play dynamic specific as pro analytics personnel departments. I watched the all22 and my eyes told me something different regarding Haden's play given the coverage and how the all22 shows that he took away deep shots with good coverage leading to coverage sacks. This can't be seen on the tv copy. PFF also said Shon Coleman played well in the preseason and so did everyone else.... How did #Browns starting right tackle Shon Coleman fare this preseason? His Pass Blocking grade (82.6) was 4th best in the league. pic.twitter.com/zY7Yp9AQeT — Brian Spoon (@BrianSpoon) September 6, 2017 Evidence says.......HELL to Nah NO Shon almost had 3 quarters of some of the worst RT play I've seen in recent memory...... Here are some of the lowlights...(to avoid copyright issues a youtuber added the source video with a background) 1. Shon misses completely the reach back/ hook block allowing number 74 free access to the runner. After the play, Randell Telfer tells him and gestures "hook" This is a very basic blocking understanding. He should know "when there's a guy across from you and another lined up wide 9 of the TE, you block the guy across from you." Complete miss. ---------------------------- 2. The very next play: he's put on his back due to waist bending reach and loss of balance causing Kessler to have to flee the pocket ----------------------- 3. A few plays later, Shon is Judo tossed to the ground right off the snap ( it's hard to even locate him b/c he's so far away from the ball under the Centers feet and almost takes out their knee...he ends up 4 yards beyond the LOS on his knees due to waist bending/reaching...his man after tossing Shon to the ground blows up a pulling Greco and running Matthew Dayes. Shon gets off the ground with his arms in a shrug position like "did I do that" ----------------- 4. ON THE FREAKING NEXT PLAY more gems....Gets beat bad outside....he holds; gets a penalty...if he doesn't hold Kessler is done. Even with the hold...Kessler is under duress -------------------- 5. Here he reaches and gives the edge to the DE and has to tackle him... holding...at this point I'm thinking "he's a wrecking machine..." ------------------------------ 6. And the beat goes on....not sure what technique this is...starts bailing out backward headed right for Kessler...by the time the Defensive player contacts Shon...he's let him in the backfield into Kessler's vision and throwing lane. ------------------------------- Consensus is not always right... There was once a time where the consensus was that the world is flat....American Consensus is that every war we are in over the last 300 years is just and we're the good guys unquestionably...Consensus is that Godfather 3 was a horrible movie (it was good I tell you...).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 6 hours ago, Mind Character said: I didn't necessarily say he made great plays. I said he played a really good game. Forcing multiple coverage sacks when the QB is looking your way for a big play but you're in a good position constitutes good to really good play in my mind. Great would mean he had multiple PBUs, FF, and/or INTs... It's true he mostly carried out his assignment I think if I used the word "Solid" you'd agree instead of me using "really good" to describe his play. Taking away deep shots that lead to sack is productive play though in my mind and hard to tell from the TV copy. Ultimately, my point was just that those using his game to suggest they were justified in saying he was "complete trash" or "still a pro bowl CB" are both wrong. He played well and it's too be seen how it turns out in the end; however, based on one game his arrow is pointing up. Joe Haden forced coverage sacks or a 21 year old rookie in his first game was slow to read a defense and coverage sacks ensued? If Kizer had put another pass or two on the money his already not good numbers would have been even worse. Hell, he got smoked on a deep route by a damned running back, but Kizer overthrew him. The numbers throwing at him mirror what teams have done the last 2 years. That's not an 11 million per year type of a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pscottdai Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 8 hours ago, Mind Character said: Using PFF as evidence is often shaky. Sometimes their metrics can tell the story and can be a tool of understanding but other times they tell the complete opposite story due to the lack of context and the inability to capture the specificity of play realities snap by snap. That's why pro personnel people don't use PFF or but sometimes PFF sees things the same as them b/c they use metrics that sometimes include the analytics that pro personnel and analytics department use. Their grading methodology is not as rigorous or as play dynamic specific as pro analytics personnel departments. I watched the all22 and my eyes told me something different regarding Haden's play given the coverage and how the all22 shows that he took away deep shots with good coverage leading to coverage sacks. This can't be seen on the tv copy. ------------------------------- Consensus is not always right... There was once a time where the consensus was that the world is flat....American Consensus is that every war we are in over the last 300 years is just and we're the good guys unquestionably...Consensus is that Godfather 3 was a horrible movie (it was good I tell you...).... Agree that PFF metrics can be shakey but interesting article here: http://brownswire.usatoday.com/2017/09/11/browns-picked-on-joe-haden-in-coverage-and-it-worked/amp/ "Deshone Kizer was 6-8 for 80 yds when targeting Joe Haden on Sunday (most targets and catches allowed by any Steeler)." And this by a "21 year old rookie in his first game (who) was slow to read a defense" as LGB put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaWg_LB. Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 I think most of this topic has been beat to death....couple items I didnt see in here..... Joe Scho looks like he's taking the biggest step of last years draft picks so far.....this kid may end up being a STUD MLB..... I didnt notice a drop off in our Secondary play minus Joe Haden.....maybe it was just me, but I watched the game start to finish...and in the 4th quater when they showed Antonio Browns stats, I couldnt believe how many yards he had....it didnt feel like he had that many to me.....he had that one huge catch on 3rd down that was challenged, and he drew a BS pass interference call on Taylor.....other than that, I somehow felt we kept him pretty much contained.... Derrick Kindred looks like he is taking a next step.....he played both rolls at TCU FS and SS...but if you look at his combine numbers, he does have the athletics to play FS....IMO. Larry Ogunjobi is going to be a LOAD for OC and OG's to handle sooner than later......this kid is still learning to play the game....and in his limited snaps he was giving Pouncey a FIT.....Carl Nassib also played VERY well for the amount of snaps he was in......and where did this Trevon Coley come from??? I head about him most of the preseason, but he looked good in live game action as well...our Dline is going to be a Problem..... Louis and Coats were very solid on Special Teams all day.... Folks who need to pick up Kenny Britt Kevin Zitler Crowell (eventhough I think some of this had to do with him having to run outta the shotgun most of the day vs out of the I formation) Nate Orchard + Tyrone Holmes...need to see more out of you guys..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Zeitler apparently injured himself Sunday, so I don't know how much that mattered. Pff had him graded reasonably well iirc. Tretter was the one I saw getting his backside handed to him at times. Orchard... dude needs to pick it up. Britt needs to realize preseason is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchdigger Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 This link won't force a loved one to hold your tongue down with a spoon, and shows how Shon Coleman can be good sometimes too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 6 hours ago, pscottdai said: Agree that PFF metrics can be shakey but interesting article here: http://brownswire.usatoday.com/2017/09/11/browns-picked-on-joe-haden-in-coverage-and-it-worked/amp/ "Deshone Kizer was 6-8 for 80 yds when targeting Joe Haden on Sunday (most targets and catches allowed by any Steeler)." And this by a "21 year old rookie in his first game (who) was slow to read a defense" as LGB put it. Again....you're really missing the point...raw statistical data doesn't always paint the full picture... Only the metrics in context of actual game play tell the story... For example, what would the numbers say of Joe Schobert in the passing game? He gave up a TD and a deep pass; but in context, he played a great game and was in position but missed a few plays by inches. --------------------------------------------------- The numbers can't answer these following questions: 1. Was he beat badly or right there in position to make the play? 2. What was his assignment...was he in man or zone? What was the down in distance (if it's third and long; CBs play soft coverage and willingly give up underneath routes below the first down marker)? 3. What was his responsibility given the defensive play call (how did the play call mesh with the offensive play call)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Another thing people tend to miss...is the volatility of CB play. Did anyone watch the top CBs in the league on Sunday (Richard Sherman, Desmond Trufant, Janoris Jenkins, Patrick Peterson, Josh Norman, etc...)? And I'm not just talking about their PFF metrics but their analytical metrics within the context of their actual play and the context their play live in (defensive call, assignment, down and distance, etc...) A lot of them struggled in play and based on the metrics. That's the position. We'll see how they trend over time... 9 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Joe Haden forced coverage sacks or a 21 year old rookie in his first game was slow to read a defense and coverage sacks ensued? If Kizer had put another pass or two on the money his already not good numbers would have been even worse. Hell, he got smoked on a deep route by a damned running back, but Kizer overthrew him. The numbers throwing at him mirror what teams have done the last 2 years. That's not an 11 million per year type of a player. @LETSGOBROWNIES There's no argument that Joe deserved 11mil per/yr...none at all...he doesn't and is not that player. There's a lot of truth in what you're saying; however, It's harder to say when it comes to the coverage sacks... when watching the all22, Kizer looked back deep to routes covered by Haden 4 (could've been 3 really b/c two receivers ran in the same area but it looked like he was looking toward the receiver covered by Haden but it was a little hard to tell) out 6 times. Now, would a more seasoned QB still have thrown the ball or just got rid of it...maybe yes...but it's still clear Joe was in position and made Kizer think otherwise in regards to throwing the ball at least in some part due to being in good position. My overall point was that I hate when ppl use post game PFF stats, their own bias, and the TV copy to make claims about the play of a player. Sometimes a player's play is so glaring that it's possible to be accurate that way, but most of the time that's a recipe for incorrect analysis. This is especially true as the TV copy doesn't really show what's going on with CB play (or even QB play for that matter as you can't see what their seeing). It's just better imo to have PFF stats, one's own bias, TV copy, all22 cam, play-dynamic metrics, and general football knowledge in order to try to come to some understanding of a player's play. I watched the all22 and considered such factors with the end result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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