2020 NFL Draft Discussion

[Golfman]

3 hours ago, Joe said:

I'm huge on him, but I don't see him getting past pick 20. OT at 25-26, wherever we're drafting there, is more realistic. 

I know Pettine runs DB heavy, but don't you think it may be due to the lack of talent at ILB? Just a thought...

Clearly we suffer from a lack of talent at ILB so I can't say for sure. If I recall he used to run 2 ILBs in the past, but the game has changed since even 5 years ago in that regard. I'm all for additional talent at ILB, even if we re-sign Martinez and Burks turns out to be something. It would be nice if those two things happened and we could let the draft fall to us, rather than having to try and 'force' a pick. 

[ReadyToThump]

1 hour ago, Golfman said:

Clearly we suffer from a lack of talent at ILB so I can't say for sure. If I recall he used to run 2 ILBs in the past, but the game has changed since even 5 years ago in that regard. I'm all for additional talent at ILB, even if we re-sign Martinez and Burks turns out to be something. It would be nice if those two things happened and we could let the draft fall to us, rather than having to try and 'force' a pick. 

This year's draft is loaded with talent at LB if things go bad. 

[ccecilnosebleed]

On 9/18/2019 at 2:50 PM, Joe said:

Comparing MVS to Driver is apples-to-oranges on a number of levels, but we saw the same kind of flashes out of MVS that we saw out of Driver. 

I have to disagree here. Driver didn’t get a lot of touches or even reps early, but man when he got the chance you saw it. He obviously had a fire that few players had. Not saying MVS hasn’t flashed, but he hasn’t shown driver-esque anything in terms of will at this point IMO.

Edited September 29, 2019 by ccecilnosebleed

[Joe]

11 hours ago, Golfman said:

Clearly we suffer from a lack of talent at ILB so I can't say for sure. If I recall he used to run 2 ILBs in the past, but the game has changed since even 5 years ago in that regard. I'm all for additional talent at ILB, even if we re-sign Martinez and Burks turns out to be something. It would be nice if those two things happened and we could let the draft fall to us, rather than having to try and 'force' a pick. 

I'd rather not force a pick either. What I would definitely posit is that Pettine is less likely to play 2 ILB's not because of any trends away from the position, but because of a lack of depth IMHO.

7 hours ago, ccecilnosebleed said:

I have to disagree here. Driver didn’t get a lot of touches or even reps early, but man when he got the chance you saw it. He obviously had a fire that few players had. Not saying MVS hasn’t flashed, but he hasn’t shown driver-esque anything in terms of will at this point IMO.

That...kinda was my point actually only reworded differently lol.

[Leader]

13 hours ago, Golfman said:

Clearly we suffer from a lack of talent at ILB so I can't say for sure. If I recall he used to run 2 ILBs in the past, but the game has changed since even 5 years ago in that regard. I'm all for additional talent at ILB, even if we re-sign Martinez and Burks turns out to be something. It would be nice if those two things happened and we could let the draft fall to us, rather than having to try and 'force' a pick. 

50 players are listed on the stat line for tackles. Blake Martinez currently leads them all. I presume that includes his week 4 efforts and the others will be updated after today/Monday. The list is *dominated* by the LB position. Safety comes in second. There's one DE. No DL. Now - Clearly not all the LBs listed are ILBs - but its clear the position is the tackling engine of the NFL defensive machine. Why we have the continual "angst" - "Oh no, we cant designate a high draft pick to the position"....is beyond me. If a difference maker is there to be taken - its clear that player can (and will) make a difference.
 

[Golfman]

14 hours ago, Golfman said:

Clearly we suffer from a lack of talent at ILB so I can't say for sure. If I recall he used to run 2 ILBs in the past, but the game has changed since even 5 years ago in that regard. I'm all for additional talent at ILB, even if we re-sign Martinez and Burks turns out to be something. It would be nice if those two things happened and we could let the draft fall to us, rather than having to try and 'force' a pick. 

 

23 minutes ago, Leader said:

50 players are listed on the stat line for tackles. Blake Martinez currently leads them all. I presume that includes his week 4 efforts and the others will be updated after today/Monday. The list is *dominated* by the LB position. Safety comes in second. There's one DE. No DL. Now - Clearly not all the LBs listed are ILBs - but its clear the position is the tackling engine of the NFL defensive machine. Why we have the continual "angst" - "Oh no, we cant designate a high draft pick to the position"....is beyond me. If a difference maker is there to be taken - its clear that player can (and will) make a difference.
 

Since you quoted me I have to ask. Where did I stated we can't designate a high pick to ILB? I proposed letting the draft fall to us rather than forcing a position that wouldn't warrant it on our draft board to fill a need. 

[MacReady]

Just now, Leader said:

50 players are listed on the stat line for tackles. Blake Martinez currently leads them all. I presume that includes his week 4 efforts and the others will be updated after today/Monday. The list is *dominated* by the LB position. Safety comes in second. There's one DE. No DL. Now - Clearly not all the LBs listed are ILBs - but its clear the position is the tackling engine of the NFL defensive machine. Why we have the continual "angst" - "Oh no, we cant designate a high draft pick to the position"....is beyond me. If a difference maker is there to be taken - its clear that player can (and will) make a difference.
 

I've explained this already.  You want to know why you don't spend a first round pick on a difference maker at the ILB position? 

Because they aren't difference makers. 

ILB play is based 100% on the DL in front of them.  Have you not noticed that our front has not been playing well, leaving holes everywhere?  That's not on an ILB to fix. 

Roquan Smith - 48.8 PFF grade.
Devin White is not playing well for the Buccaneers.
Devin Bush has a 40.8 grade on PFF.
Tremaine Edmunds - 69
Leighton Vander Esch - 68.6
Rashan Evans - 55.5
Hasaan Reddick - 56.6

Blake Martinez - 63.5

Show me where the difference maker is. 

If you want better ILB play, draft yourself a pass rushing DL who can also play the run and you'll not only get better ILB play, but you'll also get more pass rush. 

Dexter Lawrence was taken after:

Two ILB, one guard and a tight end.  He is the highest graded rookie in the NFL right now. 

David Mayo and Alec Ogletree are both rated higher than any one of those difference makers you want in the first round. 

You want to know what Aaron Donald does for a linebacker?

Undrafted Corey Littleton has a PFF grade of 80.2 right now. 
7th round Bryce Hager has a 74.6 grade right now. 

So an undrafted and a 7th round ILB have higher grades than the last 7 first round inside linebackers.  That's either a serious coincidence, or maybe DL is more important than which ILB you've got. 

Blake Martinez for the Rams has a 90 PFF grade and gets an all-pro.  And yet you and others want to sit around and act like these positions exist in a vacuum. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Outpost31

[Leader]

1 hour ago, Golfman said:

Since you quoted me I have to ask. Where did I stated we can't designate a high pick to ILB? I proposed letting the draft fall to us rather than forcing a position that wouldn't warrant it on our draft board to fill a need. 

I didnt say that...but its a general meme around here.

[MacReady]

Just now, Leader said:

I didnt say that...but its a general meme around here.

That "meme" has more basis on points and facts than the meme that it's ridiculous. 

I just showed you that an undrafted and 7th round ILB are graded 12-40 points higher than top 15 draft picks at the position and instead of acknowledging it, you call it a meme. 

[Joe]

This is why I was wanting Linval Joseph a couple years ago. I believe we need BOTH DL and ILB to be addressed early. I was a huge fan of Dexter Lawrence coming into this draft because he's a 340 lb. dancing bear. Kenny can't do it all. Blake can't do it all. The sucky thing is that we're probably going to have to draft another OT early, though a lot of OT's are rising up the boards right now at least.

[packfanfb]

52 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

That "meme" has more basis on points and facts than the meme that it's ridiculous. 

I just showed you that an undrafted and 7th round ILB are graded 12-40 points higher than top 15 draft picks at the position and instead of acknowledging it, you call it a meme. 

Wait a minute...where is this coming from? 

I've been on this site for years and you've always been a proponent of taking ILBs in the first round. I've always said, there are 3 certainties in life: death, taxes and Outpost pushing for an ILB, WR or IOL in the first round, preferably top 10 if possible.

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

Wait a minute...where is this coming from? 

I've been on this site for years and you've always been a proponent of taking ILBs in the first round. I've always said, there are 3 certainties in life: death, taxes and Outpost pushing for an ILB, WR or IOL in the first round, preferably top 10 if possible.

Funny.  Now respond on the content, not me.  You gonna say PFF sucks when it grades the exact same way for every player in the front seven?

If that's not your excuse, explain how undrafted and 7th round linebackers for the team with the best DL are rated higher than high first round picks. 

It is proof that everything I've been saying is true.  The better the DL, the better the ILB. 

Second round?  Absolutely. 
Can we improve on Martinez?  Absolutely.
Can we get worse than Martinez?  Absolutely. 

First round?  Every single year with maybe five exceptions going back to the year 2000, there's a better way to improve your ILB than taking one in the first. 

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, Leader said:

50 players are listed on the stat line for tackles. Blake Martinez currently leads them all. I presume that includes his week 4 efforts and the others will be updated after today/Monday. The list is *dominated* by the LB position. Safety comes in second. There's one DE. No DL. Now - Clearly not all the LBs listed are ILBs - but its clear the position is the tackling engine of the NFL defensive machine. Why we have the continual "angst" - "Oh no, we cant designate a high draft pick to the position"....is beyond me. If a difference maker is there to be taken - its clear that player can (and will) make a difference.
 

Scouting ILBs is almost never clear. The same reason that they aren't a premium position in the pros (their effectiveness is extremely dependent on the DL playing in front of them) makes evaluating them extremely murky.

[MacReady]

9 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Scouting ILBs is almost never clear. The same reason that they aren't a premium position in the pros (their effectiveness is extremely dependent on the DL playing in front of them) makes evaluating them extremely murky.

Don't bother.  You can explain this all you want and wE StiLl nEed plaYMakerz. 

[OneTwoSixFive]

3 hours ago, Leader said:

I didnt say that...but its a general meme around here.

A premium ILB would be nice................but does the position require a high pick, a pick there, a pick there over every other position.

I wouldn't be surprised to see another ILB taken in the mid rounds because that is what seems to be the Packers modus operandi (Ryan - 4th, Martinez - 4th, Burks - 3rd).

For the first two picks, one is very likely to be an OT. The other could be a big DE to help the rotation, a CB (assuming Josh Jackson becomes a Safety and T.Williams is gone), a WR who is an upgrade for the slot position, more depth at edge rusher. I'd rate any of those positions above ILB. There is also an outside chance that the Packers spend a second rounder on a RB, there will be decent RBs later (it should be a good year for them), but there could be a special one available in round 2.

Of the above possibilities, the Packers may think we already have enough depth at CB with Brown and Hollman behind Alexander and King, but the amount of times they have drafted DBs early in the last 5-6 years, suggests they value this position highly.