~~//~~ Pro Wrestling: Road to Wrestlemania ~~\\~~

[The Gnat]

7 hours ago, The LBC said:

They're trying to avoid the rut they got into before post Four Horsewomen (which by the time Bailey came up included Alexa and Nia) call-up where, had it not been for Asuka just being able to roll HAM for a long time, the division was kind of lackluster until Ember carved out her spot and the Women's Tournament happened.

People get that there need to be jobbers too right and that some of the folks who get brought up from NXT are going to end up enhancement talent?  LIS earlier, Mandy is probably destined for manager/hold-a-mic personality type (I mean, someone really want to tell me she can't be the equivalent or better than what Dasha is right now?).  Logan and Deville are probably destined to be enhancement talent - which is fine.  Ruby and Liv are probably destined for that too, but just over a longer period.  Paige is probably the only actual main event level talent in this whole bunch, but they don't need ME talent.  And if, as it's been kicked around, they venture into a Women's Tag Team division(s) next year, they're going to need more women on the roster than they had.

In a way, I'm kind of glad they cleared some room out in NXT because it will afford other women who I feel like have more long-term potential as legit main roster talent (at a level above enhancement and that could eventually be title contenders) to build their characters and get over huge with the fans, like Candice LeRae, Vanessa Borne, Rhea Ripley, and Lacey Evans.  Also, means they might reach out and bring in certain others from the Women's Tournament that weren't initially brought in (Toni Storm, Rachel Evers - yes, she's in Impact but Impact is in a death spiral), Nicole Savoy - seriously, breaking up her and Shayna as a tag team is no bueno, and I think she has more long-term potential than Shayna does, and Tessa Blanchard - I mean, if Ricochet ends up in NXT and they're both already rooming with Apollo Crews, that's some major pull.

100% agree. There are a lot of good women down there, and pulling up the ones that they did, you had Ruby Riot who was over, Liv Morgan who had been down there for a long time, Sarah Logan who has a good chunk of indies experience and didn't really need more work (though they do have to get a character on main). I don't get Mandy Rose as much, but DeVille needed to come up otherwise she'll disappear as the other MMA branded fighter. Plus with the Mae Young Classic it was clear they were going to have to bring up a bunch just with the number that they signed from that.

Also, both RAW and Smackdown needed more depth on the women's roster. I was a bit surprised that the Iconic Duo weren't brought up, but it would make sense for Peyton Royce to be Ember Moon's first feud.

[Texansfan713]

Josh Reddick's walk up music next season is Bobby Roode's theme song.   YES!

[BlaqOptic]

Is this really WWEs plan?

Writer #1: We've gotta reinvigorate the Women's Division... What do we do?

Writer #2: Well, 3 years ago when we brought up an NXT Invasion it started the revolution! 

Writer #3: That's perfect!

 I mean seriously, prior to the 5 NXT Ladies coming up and Page returning there were like 18 girls on the main roster. But a good 10 of them weren't getting valid storylines. Not to mention these 18 women were relegated to 2 or 3 women's matches a week. And adding 6 girls to the roster is going to fix this how?

Honestly, the only way to save the women's division on the main roster is to give them their own show like 205 Live.

 

[BlaqOptic]

On 11/21/2017 at 1:27 AM, The LBC said:

She was in the qualifier for the last spot on Team RAW women literally last week.

Asuka needs women to run through.  Daria Benatto/DeVille whatever the hell they're calling her now is a fair worker but has no long term future.  Mandy is likely destined for Lana-ville, (possibly eventually a lackey to Bliss if Bliss stays heel), but she can be an easy squash.  I think this was as much to eventually transition Bliss babyface as it was to bring up more heels.  Plus, they're going to need some sort of women's Mania title matches not involving Charlotte/Becky/Bailey/Sasha since they're likely going to book the WWE vs MMA Four Horsewomen match.

I keep hearing about this but I have no awarness of it other than Rousey at Mania 3 years ago.

Or is this the in-company girls with MMA backgrounds? Would they really be allowed to make that jump/they can build that in less than 5 months?

Can someone elaborate for me?

[BlaqOptic]

13 hours ago, The LBC said:

They're trying to avoid the rut they got into before post Four Horsewomen (which by the time Bailey came up included Alexa and Nia) call-up where, had it not been for Asuka just being able to roll HAM for a long time, the division was kind of lackluster until Ember carved out her spot and the Women's Tournament happened.

People get that there need to be jobbers too right and that some of the folks who get brought up from NXT are going to end up enhancement talent?  LIS earlier, Mandy is probably destined for manager/hold-a-mic personality type (I mean, someone really want to tell me she can't be the equivalent or better than what Dasha is right now?).  Logan and Deville are probably destined to be enhancement talent - which is fine.  Ruby and Liv are probably destined for that too, but just over a longer period.  Paige is probably the only actual main event level talent in this whole bunch, but they don't need ME talent.  And if, as it's been kicked around, they venture into a Women's Tag Team division(s) next year, they're going to need more women on the roster than they had.

In a way, I'm kind of glad they cleared some room out in NXT because it will afford other women who I feel like have more long-term potential as legit main roster talent (at a level above enhancement and that could eventually be title contenders) to build their characters and get over huge with the fans, like Candice LeRae, Vanessa Borne, Rhea Ripley, and Lacey Evans.  Also, means they might reach out and bring in certain others from the Women's Tournament that weren't initially brought in (Toni Storm, Rachel Evers - yes, she's in Impact but Impact is in a death spiral), Nicole Savoy - seriously, breaking up her and Shayna as a tag team is no bueno, and I think she has more long-term potential than Shayna does, and Tessa Blanchard - I mean, if Ricochet ends up in NXT and they're both already rooming with Apollo Crews, that's some major pull.

Damnit... I hate that you make 100% valid points. I guess I kind of always forget that sometimes there actually has to be enhancement talent on the roster and that some poeple simply have to be over while others serve their role. I don't know, I guess in my childhood I just always felt that every wrestler on the roster had a chance at one of the belts even when there were much less of them. Even though, recently, in looking at title reign lengths I realized how wrong my belief from childhood was wrong. 

I don't know... I still would like a Women's Division show to give the Women more time and that possibility of a tag division and/or other titles within the division or a Royal Rumble like AF hinted at. Little things like those would be nice because I feel that, overall, the women's characters and presentation are worlds better than their male counterparts.

[Pastor Dillon]

I wonder if they are going to finally do the Woman's royal rumble match. They have enough to do like 15 ladies. 

[tom cody]

I read on another website yesterday that a women's Royal Rumble was looking possible. I think this is a good idea and could really increase the profile of the female wrestlers.

[Dr LBC]

On 11/22/2017 at 11:42 AM, BlaqOptic said:

I keep hearing about this but I have no awarness of it other than Rousey at Mania 3 years ago.

Or is this the in-company girls with MMA backgrounds? Would they really be allowed to make that jump/they can build that in less than 5 months?

Can someone elaborate for me?

They had a freaking staredown between Ronda/Jessamyn/Marina and Bailey/Sasha/Becky in a backstage segment at the finals of the Mae Young Classic.  I'd say they've certainly got plans to do it.  Throw in that Marina is Roderick Strong's wife and that they could likely put the match together at the Training Center not all that far from New Orleans - and that Jessamyn is really the only one that needs much training since Marina has at least a little training, Ronda's done choreographed fighting in the past, and Shayna's likely to carry the meat the match anyway.

[Pastor Dillon]

Sounds like a smackdown guy will win the rumble and Roman reigns will win an elimination chamber match to get a title shot. 

Probably a triple main event of

reigns vs lesnar

nakamura vs Styles 

HHH vs Angle

[BillsGuy82]

When I seen NXT live, Peyton Royce talent level stood out but so did her lack of experience. Ember Moon and Peyton Royce are both raw but massive potential down the road. They may make a WM cameo but they're not even close to be ready for the Main Roster imo.

Does anyone else feel there is too much talent on both rosters that it's being wasted ? Had this discussion the other day watching SS

[Dr LBC]

19 hours ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Sounds like a smackdown guy will win the rumble and Roman reigns will win an elimination chamber match to get a title shot. 

Probably a triple main event of

reigns vs lesnar

nakamura vs Styles 

HHH vs Angle

Unless they do Strowman vs Cena at Mania, we're getting Cena vs Jinder in some capacity (I'm still not unconvinced they don't have AJ drop the title back to him at Night of Champions and then Cena wins his record-breaker off of Jinder at Mania).  They're going to get Cena the record and if Reigns takes the belt off Lesnar, it's a shade easier for them to do Cena as a part-timer with the belt for a short spell, particularly if someone either takes it off him at MITB or wins MITB and cashes in on him soon after.

[Dr LBC]

15 hours ago, BillsGuy82 said:

When I seen NXT live, Peyton Royce talent level stood out but so did her lack of experience. Ember Moon and Peyton Royce are both raw but massive potential down the road. They may make a WM cameo but they're not even close to be ready for the Main Roster imo.

Does anyone else feel there is too much talent on both rosters that it's being wasted ? Had this discussion the other day watching SS

Depends on how you define "wasted," honestly.  As was discussed earlier, people love to talk up the Attitude Era as being a time when you felt like anyone one the roster could be in line for a title shot, but go back and actually watch it - a lot of us were viewing through rose-colored glasses.  Someone might have gotten a "title shot" but it was pretty apparent he stood no chance of winning, none whatsoever.  So it was basically a glorified squash match because the combination of Vince, Brother Bruce, and the vets in the locker room understood back then that you keep the champion looking strong at all costs.

If you want to argue that talent is being wasted because the writers (and ultimately Vince) can't come up with meaningful storylines for these guys that aren't built off of or completely de-evolve into cliche?  I'd tend to agree.  I can't put that all on the writers or Vince, because the environment in the locker room has been known long enough that guys need to realize that sometimes you have to take the plunge and create opportunities for yourself.  And there are a lot of people that are just treading water because they're worried about ruffling feathers.

If people are arguing that talent is being wasted because certain guys who were huge draws in other promotions have hit the main roster and weren't strapped to that rocket inside of the first year and instead were made to put over the established veterans, then I'd disagree.  It's not wasting, it's earning your stripes.  And again, I think people tend to remember things a bit more favorably than they actually were.  Jericho spent his first year-plus in WWF feuding with Chyna, and wasn't brought remotely near the main event until April 2001 during his feud with Trips that had him winning the WWF Championship on Hebner's "fast count" that was later reversed.  Vince, flatly, doesn't care what you did before you got to WWE - and that includes NXT, so he has to see it in you in WWE before he gives you the rocket.  And if I'm being blunt, blame whoever you like, but Nakamura's stuff on the main roster has been horribly ho-hum compared to what he was doing in NXT and in Japan, so I'm not surprised in the slightest that Vince isn't hot to push him hard and huge.  Honestly, I can see Roode getting that rocket push before Nakamura because Roode is getting himself over as a face and we all know that he is a far superior character as a heel, so when they inevitably decide to flip him because they run out of stuff for him as a face, he's almost assuredly going to end up taking the ball and running with it.

With regards to the folks down in NXT, count me in as one of those that just doesn't see it with Peyton and Billie.  I get it they're hot, but they're copping a long-copied gimmick and they're annoying (and not in a good way - Enzo is annoying in a good way, as an example).  Ember, I agree, is raw still and I think that's getting exposed a bit now that she doesn't have the likes of Asuka to work with.  Fortunately, I think having ladies like Mercedes Martinez in NXT can help her quite a bit, because Ember needs to work more of a strong style with her gimmick and Mercedes is fantastic at teaching that.  Roddy was akin to a Bobby Roode or Samoa Joe, he was ready before he stepped into NXT, but I think he and his character have also benefited tremendously from his time in NXT.  Whether he or Gargano are a peg higher on the board in term of where management views things is anyone's question, but if all that's going to happen is one or both get brought up and stuck on 205 Live, I'd just as soon they stay in NXT and never get promoted.  I get that people want Daniel Bryan to come back and wrestle, but I feel like doing that stifles the upward moment of guys like Gargano and Roddy, both of which are as entertaining (and would be less limited) in the ring, are more diverse promos, and can play/fulfill the exact same role as Bryan - and for longer, because both are younger, more so in the former's case than the later.

Pete Dunne has it in a way that I'm not sure we've seen since Chris Benoit; by that I mean someone who is smaller than most but you flatly don't care because you look at him and think, "That guy's a BA who I don't want to mess with."  And, realistically, Dunne's a better promo than Benoit was.  Give him more exposure (and he's still young as hell so it's not like he can't wait and simmer a little) and he's someone who I'm quite confident will get that rocket.  

[y*so*blu]

Damn, I didn't even know we had such a great wrestling thread here!

I've been a fan for nearly 20 years. I watched WWF/E pretty regularly from 1999 to 2010, when I lost interest in anything and everything they were doing. I liked WCW a little better in the late 90s because of their roots in traditional NWA-style wrestling, but egos and Russo screwed all that up and they went out of business in '01. From the mid to late 2000s I followed TNA until it became obvious they were never going to make it, as well as SHIMMER, the best women's promotion in the country. Paige, Bayley, Ember Moon, Asuka, Ayako Hamada, Serena Deeb, Awesome Kong/Kharma, Mercedes Martinez, Sara Del Rey and many more all wrestled there before going up to WWE or NXT and I had the pleasure of seeing many of them live.

I've also attended several indy shows in the Twin Cities area and seen some flashes of brilliance. Thing is ... the kind of wrestling I really enjoy is hard to find these days. Ever since they starved kayfabe to death, put a stake in its heart, dug up and defiled its corpse, burned it, and let guys like Joey Ryan spit on the ashes, the business has been headed in a direction that simply doesn't interest me at all. The following is a list of things that are annoying, unnecessary, and need to change in wrestling.

1. STANDING IRISH WHIPS. Not realistic. If you're fighting toe to toe with a guy who is roughly your weight or higher, you can't just halfheartedly grab him by the wrist and assume he's going to run in the direction you want him to go. Why do they think they can do it in wrestling? Because they were taught by buffoons who didn't care about the basics, that's why. I should never see a standing Irish whip in a match unless the guy whipping outweighs his opponent by a hundred pounds or more. Otherwise, pound him into the ropes and THEN whip him. It's still not totally believable (which will always be the curse of the whip) but at least it doesn't look totally stupid and lazy.

2. OVERDONE STRIKING EXCHANGES. This is a problem in the indies especially. Guys and girls will just stand there and take turns exchanging mediocre worked punches, slaps or chops forever and ever 'til the end of time. STOP DOING IT. It's not convincing in wrestling. If this was real and your opponent was hitting you, you'd grab his arm and bar it or duck under and grab him from behind, then work from there. You don't just stand there and exchange a thousand strikes trying to force some kind of drama. A well-worked, convincing match takes care of itself.

3. FLIPPY ****. It doesn't matter how many moonsaults, suicide dives, or 450 splashes you can do; if you can't manage a decent worked punch or lockup leading up to that, then I don't care. If your basics suck, you've already exposed yourself as just another worker trying to hotshot everybody else and get your spots in - as opposed to looking like a guy who knows wrestling and moves like he could actually whip somebody. THAT is why Brock Lesnar is more over than any of these guys who are doing 30-foot diving moves in front of a hundred people in a community center. Because the people believe he's a legit badass, and everything he does looks like it really hurts.

4. GRADE-SCHOOL KIDS IN THE RING. I don't mean actual kids, although that would be really stupid too. I mean guys who are so physically small and underdeveloped that they look like kids in comparison to well-built wrestlers. The look isn't everything, but it counts for a lot. If you don't look like you could beat somebody up and you're not a manager, valet, sidekick to a bigger heel, or wrestling in a separate cruiserweight division, I'm going to constantly question what you're doing in the ring and why I should believe in you.

5. SPITTING ON THE ASHES OF KAYFABE. It's dead and it's not coming back. We all know that. But that doesn't mean you can just go out there and have a tag team match with your dog against a woman wrestler and an invisible man and still entertain me. It doesn't work that way. I still have to be able to take you seriously on some consistent level, and if you don't meet that standard, then you're just fooling around and you're not worth watching. That includes the invisible grenade spot, crotch suplexes, and contradictory promos. (I remember an indy show last year where Shawn Daivari cut a heartfelt face promo for the audience and then ACTUALLY SAID "I'm going into heel mode now" and proceeded to cut a heel promo from there. I was so pissed off by that, I pretty much tuned out the rest of the show.)

6. SCRIPTING. WWE's product is canned, bland, and hopelessly artificial, and trying to script every word and move on every show is one of the reasons why. It should be prearranged to some extent, but when you depend on a script, one wrong move or changed word in a promo can screw everything up. Just give them an idea of what they're supposed to be doing and let 'em go. Without that, your talent can't develop naturally, promos are less entertaining, and guys like Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock who used that kind of freedom to get over will be a thing of the past.

End overlong diatribe.

[pollino14]

Does anyone else see a big problem ahead for the WWE in regards to the amount of talent and time? They continue to sign people, and graduate people from NXT and there's simply no time for them. This probably leads to legit talent getting fired, or a significant freeze in signing indie wrestlers (which is fine by me),

[TheMonarch1110]

18 hours ago, y*so*blu said:

Damn, I didn't even know we had such a great wrestling thread here!

I've been a fan for nearly 20 years. I watched WWF/E pretty regularly from 1999 to 2010, when I lost interest in anything and everything they were doing. I liked WCW a little better in the late 90s because of their roots in traditional NWA-style wrestling, but egos and Russo screwed all that up and they went out of business in '01. From the mid to late 2000s I followed TNA until it became obvious they were never going to make it, as well as SHIMMER, the best women's promotion in the country. Paige, Bayley, Ember Moon, Asuka, Ayako Hamada, Serena Deeb, Awesome Kong/Kharma, Mercedes Martinez, Sara Del Rey and many more all wrestled there before going up to WWE or NXT and I had the pleasure of seeing many of them live.

I've also attended several indy shows in the Twin Cities area and seen some flashes of brilliance. Thing is ... the kind of wrestling I really enjoy is hard to find these days. Ever since they starved kayfabe to death, put a stake in its heart, dug up and defiled its corpse, burned it, and let guys like Joey Ryan spit on the ashes, the business has been headed in a direction that simply doesn't interest me at all. The following is a list of things that are annoying, unnecessary, and need to change in wrestling.

1. STANDING IRISH WHIPS. Not realistic. If you're fighting toe to toe with a guy who is roughly your weight or higher, you can't just halfheartedly grab him by the wrist and assume he's going to run in the direction you want him to go. Why do they think they can do it in wrestling? Because they were taught by buffoons who didn't care about the basics, that's why. I should never see a standing Irish whip in a match unless the guy whipping outweighs his opponent by a hundred pounds or more. Otherwise, pound him into the ropes and THEN whip him. It's still not totally believable (which will always be the curse of the whip) but at least it doesn't look totally stupid and lazy.

2. OVERDONE STRIKING EXCHANGES. This is a problem in the indies especially. Guys and girls will just stand there and take turns exchanging mediocre worked punches, slaps or chops forever and ever 'til the end of time. STOP DOING IT. It's not convincing in wrestling. If this was real and your opponent was hitting you, you'd grab his arm and bar it or duck under and grab him from behind, then work from there. You don't just stand there and exchange a thousand strikes trying to force some kind of drama. A well-worked, convincing match takes care of itself.

3. FLIPPY ****. It doesn't matter how many moonsaults, suicide dives, or 450 splashes you can do; if you can't manage a decent worked punch or lockup leading up to that, then I don't care. If your basics suck, you've already exposed yourself as just another worker trying to hotshot everybody else and get your spots in - as opposed to looking like a guy who knows wrestling and moves like he could actually whip somebody. THAT is why Brock Lesnar is more over than any of these guys who are doing 30-foot diving moves in front of a hundred people in a community center. Because the people believe he's a legit badass, and everything he does looks like it really hurts.

4. GRADE-SCHOOL KIDS IN THE RING. I don't mean actual kids, although that would be really stupid too. I mean guys who are so physically small and underdeveloped that they look like kids in comparison to well-built wrestlers. The look isn't everything, but it counts for a lot. If you don't look like you could beat somebody up and you're not a manager, valet, sidekick to a bigger heel, or wrestling in a separate cruiserweight division, I'm going to constantly question what you're doing in the ring and why I should believe in you.

5. SPITTING ON THE ASHES OF KAYFABE. It's dead and it's not coming back. We all know that. But that doesn't mean you can just go out there and have a tag team match with your dog against a woman wrestler and an invisible man and still entertain me. It doesn't work that way. I still have to be able to take you seriously on some consistent level, and if you don't meet that standard, then you're just fooling around and you're not worth watching. That includes the invisible grenade spot, crotch suplexes, and contradictory promos. (I remember an indy show last year where Shawn Daivari cut a heartfelt face promo for the audience and then ACTUALLY SAID "I'm going into heel mode now" and proceeded to cut a heel promo from there. I was so pissed off by that, I pretty much tuned out the rest of the show.)

6. SCRIPTING. WWE's product is canned, bland, and hopelessly artificial, and trying to script every word and move on every show is one of the reasons why. It should be prearranged to some extent, but when you depend on a script, one wrong move or changed word in a promo can screw everything up. Just give them an idea of what they're supposed to be doing and let 'em go. Without that, your talent can't develop naturally, promos are less entertaining, and guys like Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock who used that kind of freedom to get over will be a thing of the past.

End overlong diatribe.

Love it. As a worker myself, I always love to read things like this in a way to help improve my game based on what people think and how they view the business from a fans perspective.

1. I really don't know where anyone gets this from. It doesn't make sense. I have always been taught to send them off the ropes and use the momentum from the ropes to send them the other direction.

2. I've seen a couple of times where this has happened. I pretty much only do the exchanges during the comeback, but I have seen people try to go back and forth consistently and I just think "dude...you just got hit in the head/face 6 times. How are you still standing so well?" haha

4. I have one buddy that I hit the road with to shows and he is a smaller guy. I constantly tell him he needs to hit that gym and beef up, but he is still small. About 145 or so. He's a heck of a talent in the ring though and with a pretty good following.