G08 Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, abstract_thought said: He's never shown the potential to be a franchise QB. I wouldn't exclude it from the realm of possibility, but we've not seen him play at that level. The issue with the way fans (and some NFL people) evaluate QBs is that they assume that any QB with the physical tools can simply develop the mental aspects of the game that are paramount to successful QB play. That's simply not the case. The ability to process information and make accurate decisions are to some degree inherent. And Mitch has not displayed those abilities outside of an unsustainably simplistic offensive structure. That's fair, but again through 19 games he's got greater than a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio and a 92+ rating. That's not world-beating, I get it, but it's not dog**** either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, G08 said: That's fair, but again through 19 games he's got greater than a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio and a 92+ rating. That's not world-beating, I get it, but it's not dog**** either. The raw numbers are decent when compared with QBs in this era. The issue is with many of the more nuanced metrics which don't put Mitch in a good light. Even last season I'd have considered him an average starting QB. That's not horrible for a 2nd year player, but it's certainly not enough to forgive this kind of regression if it lasts for the rest of the season. I'm not sure I'd trade for a veteran at this point unless I thought he had potential to be a long-term starter (e.g. Mariota). I don't think Alex Smith or Nick Foles is leading this team to anything more than a short-lived playoff appearance. The long-term price of not getting a fair look at Mitch is too much to pay for something so trivial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, abstract_thought said: The raw numbers are decent when compared with QBs in this era. The issue is with many of the more nuanced metrics which don't put Mitch in a good light. Even last season I'd have considered him an average starting QB. That's not horrible for a 2nd year player, but it's certainly not enough to forgive this kind of regression if it lasts for the rest of the season. I'm not sure I'd trade for a veteran at this point unless I thought he had potential to be a long-term starter (e.g. Mariota). I don't think Alex Smith or Nick Foles is leading this team to anything more than a short-lived playoff appearance. The long-term price of not getting a fair look at Mitch is too much to pay for something so trivial. I think those numbers will come with time. Trubisky has said himself that he is a "reps" guy. I think that as he gets more experience he will recognize things quicker. Right now, my armchair opinion is that he is thinking instead of reacting, which is understandable. I never considered him the brightest bulb in the room but even QBs like Alex Smith take time learning this offense. Steve Young said it best... he was running the exact same offense as Brett Favre and couldn't understand why Brett would be making throws that were not in the read structure AND completing them for touchdowns. He said if you want to be a scientist and do everything by the book, you'll never be more than an average QB. You need to become an artist. I think Trubisky is overwhelmingly stuck in the "scientist" part of Young's analogy. This offense needs to marinate in his system and become second nature before (again, my opinion) he shows us what he can do when he's reacting/playing/"painting". This gets cemented further in my mind when I think back to the Ravens game his rookie year. Dowell Loggains told him that the game was on the line and that the kid needed to make a play. So he did this: Then we saw what he did against the Eagles in the playoffs and against the Redskins earlier this season. It's there when he knows he doesn't have any other option and he NEEDS to make a play. The developmental part for him right now is finding the bridge to that mindset when the score is 0-0 in the first quarter. Edited October 25, 2019 by G08 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Why is a reps guy actively getting worse? Isn’t that the opposite of what should be happening?  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 hours ago, yomyyo said: Well, they have no cap space in part because they have to sign Pace's successful draft picks... Goldman and Whitehair. He has extended exactly 2 of his successful draft picks. They have no money because they had to go out in free agency to sign Allen Robinson because Kevin White was a bust. Trey Burton because Shaheen is miles away from contributing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Appropriate Time? He has 19 games and literally is getting worse before our eyes. We are not even asking for him to be good, but only to show some life and he is failing. We have long since blown past appropriate time for him not to suck. Â Sometimes when it walks like a bust, and talks like a bust, it is a bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, WindyCity said: Right now the Bears have -no cap space -no picks -no QB  Pace deserves whatever heat comes his way. Well he currently has 2020 picks in the 2nd (two) the 5th and the 6th (two) the 7th I believe having been earned by Oak. for Piniero (well spent so far IMHO) and almost $19 mil of cap space so I would call at least that assumption inaccurate. I wouldn't mind spending a 2nd on an established well credentialed vet QB if that's what it's gonna take to get this show back on track. JAX might look favorably on that kind of offer for Foles. Or he might pursue Mariota who I believe has been replaced as the starter in Tenn. provided he can be extended. Bears 2019 Cap Totals Maximum Salary Cap: $194,893,213 Active Contracts: $152,177,684 Injured Reserve: $16,486,000 Dead Cap: $6,289,446 Total Cap: $176,096,130 Est. Cap Space: $18,797,08     Edited October 25, 2019 by soulman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 hours ago, G08 said: I never considered him the brightest bulb in the room but even QBs like Alex Smith take time learning this offense. Steve Young said it best... he was running the exact same offense as Brett Favre and couldn't understand why Brett would be making throws that were not in the read structure AND completing them for touchdowns. He said if you want to be a scientist and do everything by the book, you'll never be more than an average QB. You need to become an artist. I think Trubisky is overwhelmingly stuck in the "scientist" part of Young's analogy. This offense needs to marinate in his system and become second nature before (again, my opinion) he shows us what he can do when he's reacting/playing/"painting". This was very much my own point in my post about are we seeing Mitch as we need to see him and coaching him accordingly. Are we asking him to play in a "box" that's uncomfortable for him and undermining those same instincts and "out of the box" thinking that made Favre and now Rodgers so tough to beat? It took Alex Smith about six years to "get it" and become a consistent winner and unfortunately we don't have the luxury of being able to give Mitch those same six years. Pace and Nagy need to decide now whether or not this is the guy who can play well in this scheme or whether altering it in ways that are more in line with Mitch's natural skills and instincts is the way to go. If Nagy is unwilling to alter his approach then Pace needs to identify a QB who can operate this offense effectively now and consider him as the starter in 2020 while Mitch becomes the #2 guy and we continue to evaluate whatever progress Mitch can make in adapting to the scheme. If it's never gonna work we still have our QB and Mitch is history in Chicago after 2020. That's pretty much my take on it at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Look I see both sides of the argument on this. I don't blame fans and media for having those thoughts that Mitch is not the guy we all thought and hoped he'd be when he was drafted #2 overall.  I totally get that more was expected of him at this point in his career. That's a fair criticism. On the other hand we need to have him start the next 10 games of 2019 to see if he shows signs of progress before coming to any definitive conclusions that he may need to be replaced as early as next season.  And I am not on board with giving Daniel the starting job over Mitch right now because let's be real, we all know that this team is not winning a SB with a career backup QB and with the way the team has been playing overall this season a playoff berth is looking slim anyway also when you consider how both GB and MIN are playing right now. I don't believe that more sitting on the bench and getting mental reps will do anything for Mitch right now. He's already missed 1 and 3/4 games this season and 2 last season with his shoulder injuries plus didn't start 4 games in his rookie season. For the people who subscribe to the mental rep theory those missed games should have been good enough mental reps for him.  That said, regardless of what happens the rest of this season I truly believe that bringing in another QB next season that can legitimately push Mitch for the starting job will be the best thing the team can do. The first 2 and half years of his career they've coddled him with no real threat of taking the starting job away from him in options like Glennon, Sanchez and now Daniel.  If I'm Pace there is no way I am exercising his 5th year option in the off season, unless he goes on an absolute tear the rest of this year. I am then bringing in an affordable veteran starter like Mariota to push him. Those two things alone, the no 5th year option and legit competition in 2020 should bring out the best in him in a contract year, and if it doesn't then at least you know you made the right decision to move on. And if that's the case then hopefully the veteran option they sign can be good enough in the meantime, and then you go draft a QB with your 1st round pick in 2021. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Daniel isn’t a real option. He was brought here to mentor Mitch, not to play QB. Given the strength of the division and the NFC at large, it’s probably best for the Bears to focus on the future. That means playing Mitch or someone like Mariota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 The ship has likely sailed on the 2019 season, I think trading for a vet to get you to 10 wins would be self defeating and still not make the playoffs. Seeing what Mitch can do is likely the best option, but I'm pretty sure we're giong to be skulking around for a QB in the offseason. The only thing in-season move that has ANY upside would be trading for Rosen if he's cheap enough and seeing if he can play. Odds are we'd have two broken QB busts on the roster, but he's more of an unknown than Mitch is.  More likely I think we are going to watch the defense wither and end up rebuilding again in 2021. I remain impressed by how all-in Pace was when it came to building this team, but it seems he's whiffed on the QB and that will doom the whole effort. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 30 minutes ago, RunningVaccs said: The ship has likely sailed on the 2019 season, I think trading for a vet to get you to 10 wins would be self defeating and still not make the playoffs. Seeing what Mitch can do is likely the best option, but I'm pretty sure we're giong to be skulking around for a QB in the offseason. The only thing in-season move that has ANY upside would be trading for Rosen if he's cheap enough and seeing if he can play. Odds are we'd have two broken QB busts on the roster, but he's more of an unknown than Mitch is.  More likely I think we are going to watch the defense wither and end up rebuilding again in 2021. I remain impressed by how all-in Pace was when it came to building this team, but it seems he's whiffed on the QB and that will doom the whole effort. Lol are you Rosen's agent? I don't know if he really moves the needle for what this team needs..he's just more of an unknown. Plus how telling would it be for another team to give up on and trade him to his second team in his first 3 years in the NFL? At least with a guy like Mariota you have familiarity with because of Mark Helfrich. Rosen to me is just more of the same question marks we have with Mitch right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, topwop1 said: Lol are you Rosen's agent? I don't know if he really moves the needle for what this team needs..he's just more of an unknown. Plus how telling would it be for another team to give up on and trade him to his second team in his first 3 years in the NFL? At least with a guy like Mariota you have familiarity with because of Mark Helfrich. Rosen to me is just more of the same question marks we have with Mitch right now. No but I get a percentage of the ad revenue every time someone writes an article abnout his "character/politics/leadership" It's very unlikely he's the answer, but out of the available options for a change at QB I think the rest are stop gaps that won't get you far, he has more upside and is cheap. This is not a good situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 12 hours ago, G08 said: That's fair, but again through 19 games he's got greater than a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio and a 92+ rating. That's not world-beating, I get it, but it's not dog**** either. If you want to go by TD/INT, he was terrific against the Saints. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 50 minutes ago, beardown3231 said: If you want to go by TD/INT, he was terrific against the Saints. Stats lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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