Week 6 Poll Discussions

[beekay414]

9 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

It's the stupid hyporcrisy of the voters.  After Week 4, we had LSU ranked 4th at 3-0, Oklahoma ranked 5th at 3-0, and then Ohio State 6th at 3-0.  Since then, Ohio State is now T-3rd with Georgia, LSU is at 5, and Oklahoma is at 6.  Ohio State's 3 wins over that time frame came against Miami (OH), Nebraska, and Michigan State.  LSU has beat Vanderbilt and Utah State since that point.  Oklahoma has beaten Texas Tech and Kansas.  I'm really struggling to see how Ohio State can FLY up the rankings, but somehow Oklahoma and a lesser extent LSU tumbles.  Ohio State hasn't done anything to justify this undying love.  They literally did the exact same thing, one team is being rewarded and another is being ignored.

Neither team "tumbled." They both fell one spot. Not a travesty. LIS, the top 6 is fluid. Beat Texas this week and see what happens. I really don't care right now because the rankings don't mean anything and the top 6 can be placed in any order and nobody could complain. They're all good/great teams with only two teams in that group having signature wins which both came by 1 possession. It is what it is. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by beekay414

[MWil23]

4 hours ago, CWood21 said:

And you're even dumber than I'd think is possible.

Keep up the great work Mr. Moderator. 

[Texasmade]

If we lived in a world where preseason rankings didn’t exist, and current resume mattered the most then Georgia and LSU should, in theory be 1 & 2, in whichever order, with Wisconsin right behind them at 3. Alabama, Ohio State and Oklahoma would fill in behind them, in any particular order. 

[NateDawg]

5 hours ago, CWood21 said:

It's the stupid hyporcrisy of the voters.  After Week 4, we had LSU ranked 4th at 3-0, Oklahoma ranked 5th at 3-0, and then Ohio State 6th at 3-0.  Since then, Ohio State is now T-3rd with Georgia, LSU is at 5, and Oklahoma is at 6.  Ohio State's 3 wins over that time frame came against Miami (OH), Nebraska, and Michigan State.  LSU has beat Vanderbilt and Utah State since that point.  Oklahoma has beaten Texas Tech and Kansas.  I'm really struggling to see how Ohio State can FLY up the rankings, but somehow Oklahoma and a lesser extent LSU tumbles.  Ohio State hasn't done anything to justify this undying love.  They literally did the exact same thing, one team is being rewarded and another is being ignored.

You’re more worried about these irrelevant polls than you should be. 

You keep mentioning OSUs joke schedule so far (which is actually ranked the best of the unbeatens somehow). Other than UGA and LSU, who exactly has a big win on their resume? 

This is all about the eye test and who looks best against the teams that have been on each teams schedule so far according to voters. You seem to be mad that votes are fluid and what people voted preseason isn’t still what people think. Again, not that these polls matter anyhow ...

[malibuspeedrace]

5 hours ago, CWood21 said:

And you're even dumber than I'd think is possible.

thats an unnecessary shot

[ramssuperbowl99]

6 hours ago, CWood21 said:

19 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Sure you can.

And you're even dumber than I'd think is possible.

If you're going to be a productive poster here, you might want to familiarize yourself with the site rules:

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Okay, that was fun. But seriously, you 100% can use last year's performances. Every pollster is doing it, which is why Clemson is ranked where they are. Otherwise, it'd be inexplicable. So my statement was completely accurate.

But even if you mean "you shouldn't use last year's results", that's not entirely true either. I don't really care that Trevor Lawrence hasn't played all that well, he's amazing. We learned that last year, and it's still true this year. Sitting here and pretending he's a mediocre QB because he hasn't put up gaudy numbers against cupcakes when you know he's capable of murdering a Bama-level defense is being deliberately ignorant of how good he is.

The goal is to get the right answer. We should use all the data points we have. 2018 performance from players who are here in 2019 is a relevant data point.

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, Texasmade said:

If we lived in a world where preseason rankings didn’t exist, and current resume mattered the most then Georgia and LSU should, in theory be 1 & 2, in whichever order, with Wisconsin right behind them at 3. Alabama, Ohio State and Oklahoma would fill in behind them, in any particular order. 

Which is silly, because Bama, OSU, and Oklahoma are clearly better teams than Wisconsin.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

If you're going to be a productive poster here, you might want to familiarize yourself with the site rules:

 

Okay, that was fun. But seriously, you 100% can use last year's performances. Every pollster is doing it, which is why Clemson is ranked where they are. Otherwise, it'd be inexplicable. So my statement was completely accurate.

But even if you mean "you shouldn't use last year's results", that's not entirely true either. I don't really care that Trevor Lawrence hasn't played all that well, he's amazing. We learned that last year, and it's still true this year. Sitting here and pretending he's a mediocre QB because he hasn't put up gaudy numbers against cupcakes when you know he's capable of murdering a Bama-level defense is being deliberately ignorant of how good he is.

The goal is to get the right answer. We should use all the data points we have. 2018 performance from players who are here in 2019 is a relevant data point.

To add to this, as long as the committee is going to use the "4 best teams" criteria, without factoring in conference championships, multiple teams from each conference, etc., then Clemson is definitely one of those 4 teams. Granted, so was 2015 OSU (people forget that a 2 loss Stanford leaped them after an OSU 42-13 beatdown vs. Michigan too), but the laid an egg against MSU. Both teams had 1 loss, so the nod went to MSU, which shouldn't be argued.

Right now, you have an argument for any of the top 6 teams, maybe another 3, giving you 9 teams (Bama, LSU, UGA, OSU, OU, Clemson for sure, then the next few as "MAYBES" in Wisconsin, Florida, and Penn State).

Of any year to push for an 8 team playoff with 5 locks (Power 5 conference representatives, even though the PAC is awful) and 3 at large (The best of the B1G that doesn't make it if they have 1 loss, the 2nd best SEC team, and 1 more) it's this year. 

[MWil23]

5 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Which is silly, because Bama, OSU, and Oklahoma are clearly better teams than Wisconsin.

Here's the hard part:

Wisconsin is more than capable of beating ANY of those 3 on a given day, but I would agree that they're not "better". That said, OSU gets Wisconsin, PSU, and UM all in a 4 week span, and then likely a B1G Title game assuming they don't lose to PSU or UM. Getting through that stretch clean is a tough ask. Most people if not all, would agree that OSU is one of the 4 best teams, but they may not end up there if they stumble. However, Clemson has a cake walk even if they're one of the 4 best. Bama will eventually have to run the gauntlet of Auburn/LSU/SEC Title against Georgia/Florida, (unless Bama trips up), and OU has to play Texas AND...a barely ranked Baylor team? An almost ranked OK State and the fighting Gundys? Maybe Texas a 2nd time in the Big XII Title Game?

The Eye Test/4 best team argument is tough if you get a 1 loss Wisconsin who upsets OSU in the B1G Title Game after losing in the regular season, or a combination of an OSU loss to PSU, eliminated from the B1G East, Wisconsin beats PSU who also lost to OSU, etc.

That gets really tricky.

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

Here's the hard part:

Wisconsin is more than capable of beating ANY of those 3 on a given day, but I would agree that they're not "better". That said, OSU gets Wisconsin, PSU, and UM all in a 4 week span, and then likely a B1G Title game assuming they don't lose to PSU or UM. Getting through that stretch clean is a tough ask. Most people if not all, would agree that OSU is one of the 4 best teams, but they may not end up there if they stumble. However, Clemson has a cake walk even if they're one of the 4 best. Bama will eventually have to run the gauntlet of Auburn/LSU/SEC Title against Georgia/Florida, (unless Bama trips up), and OU has to play Texas AND...a barely ranked Baylor team? An almost ranked OK State and the fighting Gundys? Maybe Texas a 2nd time in the Big XII Title Game?

The Eye Test/4 best team argument is tough if you get a 1 loss Wisconsin who upsets OSU in the B1G Title Game after losing in the regular season, or a combination of an OSU loss to PSU, eliminated from the B1G East, Wisconsin beats PSU who also lost to OSU, etc.

That gets really tricky.

Except it doesn't ever actually get tricky.

Wisconsin is going to lose to OSU. One program recruits nationally, the other doesn't. There's just a straight up talent gap that redshirting everyone doesn't overcome. We've learned this basically every single year that Urban was at OSU, and now Day is going to carry on basically the same thing. Maybe not quite the same level, but close enough. And if we meet in the B1G championship game, Wisconsin is going to lose to OSU again. They're the better program, that's how it works.

Talking up Wisconsin in Week 6 of the season as a playoff team is great for pundits and whatnot, but it's not going to happen. Same with PSU, same with Florida. There are 6 elite teams in CFB: Clemson, OSU, OU, Bama, UGA, and LSU. You could argue if LSU belongs in this list, or if they're in a tier between the Big 5 and the rest. Doesn't really matter. Bama, UGA, and LSU are going to whittle themselves down to 1 team unless someone else lays a complete egg, in which case you'll have 2 of them in. 

Maybe it gets tricky in later years when Urban resurrects USC. But with only 4 conferences that matter, and 3 of them having 1 program clearly superior than the others, it's easy.

[MWil23]

35 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Except it doesn't ever actually get tricky.

Wisconsin is going to lose to OSU. One program recruits nationally, the other doesn't. There's just a straight up talent gap that redshirting everyone doesn't overcome. We've learned this basically every single year that Urban was at OSU, and now Day is going to carry on basically the same thing. Maybe not quite the same level, but close enough. And if we meet in the B1G championship game, Wisconsin is going to lose to OSU again. They're the better program, that's how it works.

What I'm saying is, replace Wisconsin with any single team or multiple teams like Penn State, UM, MSU, or Iowa. PSU beats OSU, Wisconsin beats PSU, OSU beats Wisconsin, meaning that PSU wins the East over OSU and goes to the title game instead. IF this was Bama/LSU, then both teams go, but as it's the B1G, OSU likely gets left out. For the record, I've been saying for years now that if you don't win your division, tough luck. That said, if the committee is going to contradict themselves with 2015 OSU and 2016 Bama, both of which are CLEARLY in the Best 4 teams conversation, it's implicit bias and more concrete rules/expansion is likely necessary and needed.

35 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Talking up Wisconsin in Week 6 of the season as a playoff team is great for pundits and whatnot, but it's not going to happen. Same with PSU, same with Florida. There are 6 elite teams in CFB: Clemson, OSU, OU, Bama, UGA, and LSU. You could argue if LSU belongs in this list, or if they're in a tier between the Big 5 and the rest. Doesn't really matter. Bama, UGA, and LSU are going to whittle themselves down to 1 team unless someone else lays a complete egg, in which case you'll have 2 of them in. 

Right, that's again what I'm saying. You could definitely have a mess of an undefeated SEC champ and a 1 loss SEC alternate (maybe even 2 if UGA doesn't lose until Bama and LSU loses to Bama/doesn't advance to the SEC Title Game), both of which get in. Meanwhile, let's say that OU or OSU slips up once, Clemson walks through the ACC...now you have a decision to make/multiple decisions. How do you leave out a clearly inferior 12-1 PSU/Wisconsin team that beat OSU head to head but ended up in some type of 3-4 team tie and OSU clearly one of the best 4 teams? The same would go for a OU Big XII argument.

35 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Maybe it gets tricky in later years when Urban resurrects USC. But with only 4 conferences that matter, and 3 of them having 1 program clearly superior than the others, it's easy.

As long as the committee stays consistent every year in their logic, but they've shown on 3 separate occasions that they won't. That's my biggest gripe.

[Raves]

34 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Except it doesn't ever actually get tricky.

Wisconsin is going to lose to OSU. One program recruits nationally, the other doesn't. There's just a straight up talent gap that redshirting everyone doesn't overcome. We've learned this basically every single year that Urban was at OSU, and now Day is going to carry on basically the same thing. Maybe not quite the same level, but close enough. And if we meet in the B1G championship game, Wisconsin is going to lose to OSU again. They're the better program, that's how it works.

Talking up Wisconsin in Week 6 of the season as a playoff team is great for pundits and whatnot, but it's not going to happen. Same with PSU, same with Florida. There are 6 elite teams in CFB: Clemson, OSU, OU, Bama, UGA, and LSU. You could argue if LSU belongs in this list, or if they're in a tier between the Big 5 and the rest. Doesn't really matter. Bama, UGA, and LSU are going to whittle themselves down to 1 team unless someone else lays a complete egg, in which case you'll have 2 of them in. 

Maybe it gets tricky in later years when Urban resurrects USC. But with only 4 conferences that matter, and 3 of them having 1 program clearly superior than the others, it's easy.

That doesn't mean anything.  Ohio State has lost a game against a team like that every year except Urban Meyer's first year when they had a bowl game ban.  Granted this year I think Ohio State will be less prone to a trap game, they do have a tough stretch of games that if they start off slow vs one of those teams could cause them to lose.

Also @ET80 if we don't use preseason polls in some fashion to determine teams placement then how are we supposed to actually try to determine a teams position outside of just the eye test against varying levels of competition?  Like how do we know if Texas or Notre Dame are any good?  A lot of LSU and Georgia's non-preseason hype comes from beating those teams, but how good are those teams actually?  I think preseason polls are overly relied upon to justify team rankings, the SEC in particular has benefitted from this model of the years allowing even 4-5 loss teams to remain ranked over teams with better records due to "beating ranked teams" which were just other SEC teams that got propped up due to beating other SEC teams that had previously been ranked high.

Right now LSU and Ohio State are probably the two best teams in the country based on their on field performance and not really showing any true weaknesses that I remember seeing.  Every other team has had some area of weakness that might be able to be taken advantage of.  Obviously as the next few weeks go on I'm sure both Ohio State and LSU will start showing some warts of their own, but so far those are the two most complete teams.  From there you have Alabama, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Oklahoma that are still dominant but are struggling/have had subpar performances from one area or another of their team whether it's QB play, defense (or lack thereof), etc that has them just a step behind, and then I think you have Clemson who has seemed to struggle to really find their identity and haven't been dominant in their games but we all know the talent is there and if/when they decide to turn it on are capable of beating any team in the country... they just haven't shown that level of dominance.

[ET80]

9 minutes ago, Raves said:

Also @ET80 if we don't use preseason polls in some fashion to determine teams placement then how are we supposed to actually try to determine a teams position outside of just the eye test against varying levels of competition?  Like how do we know if Texas or Notre Dame are any good?

I think we should get a computer to calculate values. #BCS4Life

(Just kidding, not sure how I got the mention...)

[Texasmade]

1 hour ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Which is silly, because Bama, OSU, and Oklahoma are clearly better teams than Wisconsin.

And if that is the case, then fortunately for us all, that will all work itself in due time, but as of today those 3 have the best combination of resume and eye ball test. 

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Keep up the great work Mr. Moderator. 

I was referring to the voters...not posters.