Is Lamar Jackson already better than Atlanta Vick ever was?

[wackywabbit]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:24 PM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

No response to the chart I posted?

Stats and facts are for losers.

[AkronsWitness]

6 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

Stats and facts are for losers.

You also have to take into fact that the NFL was completely different when the boom of Vick happened in the early 2000s.

When Vick was playing, top 5-10 QB seasons were around 3500 yards passing and 25 TDs. Currently in the Lamar era offensive numbers look completely different. There are 10 guys who passed over 4,000 yards, some at 5,000 and a bunch of 30+ TD passers.The offensive numbers in this current era are much more inflated than of the early 2000s because of rule changes, penalties, schemes, evolution of the game, ect.

The game was completely different when Vick played compared to Jackson therefore looking at their statistics as the sole basis for whose better doesn't paint the actual picture.

 

[Soko]

51 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

You also have to take into fact that the NFL was completely different when the boom of Vick happened in the early 2000s.

When Vick was playing, top 5-10 QB seasons were around 3500 yards passing and 25 TDs. Currently in the Lamar era offensive numbers look completely different. There are 10 guys who passed over 4,000 yards, some at 5,000 and a bunch of 30+ TD passers.The offensive numbers in this current era are much more inflated than of the early 2000s because of rule changes, penalties, schemes, evolution of the game, ect.

The game was completely different when Vick played compared to Jackson therefore looking at their statistics as the sole basis for whose better doesn't paint the actual picture.

 

Vick was bad even compared to his peers.

[AkronsWitness]

25 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Vick was bad even compared to his peers.

As a passer yeah, he wasnt anything crazy but his combination of big play ability with his arm and legs is what made them and even went to the NFC Championsip in 04. I also remember a lot of gripe with the Falcons not catering to his strengths and trying to force him to play in a system they wanted which probably hurt his progression as a long term QB. You saw what happened with Vick when he went to PHI and got into Andy Reids system.

He was out performing any numbers in Reids system passing that he did in ATL. He was throwing for 3,000 yard seasons and 20 TDs while also rushing for 500+ yards with Reid. Vick was legit in the MVP discussion in 2010 next to Tom Brady.

Its fair to wonder how much the Falcons actually held Michael Vick back by not going 'all in' with him like the Ravens did with Jackson and what Vick could have been if he, lets say....played in PHI with Reid his entire career.

All in all, I think Jackson will have the better career and be considered the better player. However, I think that his success will be in part because of Michael Vick and the Falcons laying the blueprint of how NOT to handle a QB with those type of traits and how GOOD a QB with those traits can be if handled correctly (PHI).

Edited January 22, 2020 by AkronsWitness

[Soko]

3 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

As a passer yeah, he wasnt anything crazy but his combination of big play ability with his arm and legs is what made them and even went to the NFC Championsip in 04. I also remember a lot of gripe with the Falcons not catering to his strengths and trying to force him to play in a system they wanted which probably hurt his progression as a long term QB. You saw what happened with Vick when he went to PHI and got into Andy Reids system.

He was out performing any numbers in Reids system passing that he did in ATL. He was throwing for 3,000 yard seasons and 20 TDs while also rushing for 500+ yards with Reid. Vick was legit in the MVP discussion in 2010 next to Tom Brady.

I’d hesitate to call him a legit candidate when Brady received all 50 votes. And even then, in a career year, his bulk stats were meh and his efficiency stats were good (not elite) but were never seen again for his entire career. 

3 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Its fair to wonder how much the Falcons actually held Michael Vick back by not going 'all in' with him like the Ravens did with Jackson and what Vick could have been if he, lets say....played in PHI with Reid his entire career.

All in all, I think Jackson will have the better career and be considered the better player. However, I think that his success will be in part because of Michael Vick and the Falcons laying the blueprint of how NOT to handle a QB with those type of traits and how GOOD a QB with those traits can be if handled correctly (PHI).

That’s a fair point, but I think Vick also laid out the “what attitude NOT to have” as an NFL QB as well. Both decision making wise but even more so, with his work ethic. Both of those things fall squarely on him. 

[MSURacerDT55]

9 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Vick was bad even compared to his peers.

Recency Bias all the way, this is hilarious because this wasn't how he was described when he played and you are a liar if say you did. Also, just a quick question, what receiver besides Andrews has Jackson made better with him being the QB?

Edited January 22, 2020 by MSURacerDT55

[Soko]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Recency Bias all the way, this is hilarious because this wasn't how he was described when he played and you are a liar if say you did.

I always thought Vick was a bad passer. Electrifying runner with a cannon arm - but bad accuracy and lacked most of the nuances you want out of a QB. 2010 Vick was an exception but also an anamoly.

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Also, just a quick question, what receiver besides Andrews has Jackson made better with him being the QB?

Shrug. Willie Snead, I guess? 

[Hukos]

4 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Recency Bias all the way, this is hilarious because this wasn't how he was described when he played and you are a liar if say you did. Also, just a quick question, what receiver besides Andrews has Jackson made better with him being the QB?

Everyone thought he was a bad passer when he was in Atlanta. People consistently joked about him being a RB playing QB. To your point about QBs elevating WRs... Roddy White was on the 2006 Falcons and looked horrible under Vick. Once Matt Ryan came to town, even as a rookie, Roddy White's production immediately spiked and was a consistently great, top 7-8 WR in the NFL until about 2013.

[El Ramster]

19 hours ago, Hukos said:

Everyone thought he was a bad passer when he was in Atlanta. People consistently joked about him being a RB playing QB. To your point about QBs elevating WRs... Roddy White was on the 2006 Falcons and looked horrible under Vick. Once Matt Ryan came to town, even as a rookie, Roddy White's production immediately spiked and was a consistently great, top 7-8 WR in the NFL until about 2013.

Alge Crumpler was a baller though. 

[Hukos]

That's true. But I'm nipping the "Vick didn't have weapons" theory in the bud. That's objectively not true. Now, if you want to argue that the coaching failed Vick? I'd agree with that. I was watching the Falcons back in those days. Jim Mora Jr. was an idiot. Though you can turn around and say, Mike Smith was a fairly mediocre coach and got plenty of those 2008-2012 Falcons rosters, so how bad could the coaching staff on the Vick era Falcons be?

[x0x]

Well Vick won 2 playoff games, including in Green Bay. So right now that's a big NO from me.

Gotta understand eras. More aggressive defense in Vick's day and I would argue he had a significantly weaker offense to work with. I can also bring up 1990 Randall Cunningham for a duel threat QB season. Everything now is tainted because of the heavy bias towards offenses. And it's hard to simply say passing TDs are inflated. Inflated by how? And scrambling QBs are way more common these days.

Like Marino, there is no real comparison to what Vick was. People can only compare numbers. I'm still more impressed by Vick and given how handicapped defenses are I probably always will be.

[Mr Bad Example]

On 1/20/2020 at 10:38 AM, ITS_RAMMY_PLAYBOI said:

Means you’re being short sighted homey. Vick improved a ton. Contradicting what you had said. Had he played those other games he would have dropped 40 TDs in a season. Breh.. Lamar played in big blow outs when game was out of reach. That is super stat padding. You can throw 15.5 but the dude was in there when the game was secured lol. 

Vick improved massively in 2010....and then regressed to same ol' Vick for the rest of his career. 

[Mr Bad Example]

On 1/21/2020 at 11:45 PM, AkronsWitness said:

The game was completely different when Vick played compared to Jackson therefore looking at their statistics as the sole basis for whose better doesn't paint the actual picture.

Sure, but apples-to-apples means that while being a significant rushing threat, Jackson still beat Vick's career bests in league rank as far as passing tds (Jackson 1st, Vick 10th), passer rating (Jackson 3rd, Vick 4th), comp pct (Jackson 1st, Vick 10th) and oh yeah ranked in the top 10 in rushing yds which Vick never did. 

If you compare it THAT way, Jackson has topped lot of significant bests Vick has. In his first full season as starter. Now, he could certainly regress (and definitely will, his td % is unsustainable), but one could argue that in many measures Jackson has already had a better season than Vick EVER did. Especially since his season beats Vick's best passing season AND his best rushing season, which came in '10 and...well, either '02, '06, or '10, respectively ('02 and '10 are comparable as far as yds/ypc/tds; in '06 his yds and ypc were career best but his tds were low). 

[Mr Bad Example]

3 hours ago, x0x said:

Well Vick won 2 playoff games, including in Green Bay. So right now that's a big NO from me.

I hate to sound like I'm poo-pooing Vick's playoff win, but that was a beat-to-crap GB team with Marty Schottenheimer Jr (as far as playoff chokes) at HC. The "Lambeau Mystique" is, if not overrated, only a factor when you have Curly Lambeau, Vince Lombardi, or Mike Holmgren coaching GB. 

[Mr Bad Example]

On 1/22/2020 at 12:57 AM, AkronsWitness said:

He was out performing any numbers in Reids system passing that he did in ATL. He was throwing for 3,000 yard seasons and 20 TDs while also rushing for 500+ yards with Reid. Vick was legit in the MVP discussion in 2010 next to Tom Brady.

Its fair to wonder how much the Falcons actually held Michael Vick back by not going 'all in' with him like the Ravens did with Jackson and what Vick could have been if he, lets say....played in PHI with Reid his entire career.

All in all, I think Jackson will have the better career and be considered the better player. However, I think that his success will be in part because of Michael Vick and the Falcons laying the blueprint of how NOT to handle a QB with those type of traits and how GOOD a QB with those traits can be if handled correctly (PHI).

Thing is, Phi didn't necessarily build around Vick, they just gave him a HoF offensive coach. And your last part, I mean, that's certainly fair; one could argue that even worked in RGIII's favour until Shanahan decided to trot him out in a playoff game with a shredded knee. 

 

But at this point all we can do is go by what we have as facts; Vick's "woulda, coulda, shoulda" career is just conjecture. Someone earlier mentioned Randall Cunningham, and he's actually an even better example of an athletic QB who was tossed out without much in the way of supporting cast, scheme, or coaching for a good chunk of his career...and HE managed better #s on a more consistent basis in a less passer-friendly era than Vick did.