Ja Morant vs Trae Young

[redsoxsuck05]

9 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Trae isn't Wade or MJ so those are piss poor examples. It is what it is. LIS, time will tell. 

The fact that he is not Wade or MJ actually strengthens my argument.

[amac]

3 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Call me when Young has an impact on wins and losses 

He's Kyrie Irving. He's never going to be someone that leads you to a title. People are propping him up like he's a franchise guy. He's not. Never will be. 

I don’t really see how you can reasonably declare this about a 21 year old who’s one of the most polished offensive players for his age in recent memory. At worst he is going to be a high level #2 option 

Edited January 16, 2020 by amac

[11sanchez11]

4 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Not an empty stats player

Team is 9-32

Okay

They've had the worst roster this year. Collins missed 25 gm, Huerter has been hurt like half the year plus hasn't been that good. 

After Trae the top 4 in minutes played are Hunter, Reddish, Bembry, and Jabari lolol. The best player there is a rookie who has been ok for a rookie. Reddish might be the worst offensive player in the NBA this year and if not him it might be Bembry. 

[11sanchez11]

4 hours ago, beekay414 said:

He's never going to be someone that leads you to a title. 

There might literally be 1 player in the NBA that is good enough for this definition. Lebron. 

Curry has only won a title with another MVP (plus incredible role players) or when the other team was missing 2 Allstars. KD only with another MVP. Kawhi when he was 4th in shots on the team in the regular season and playoffs or the other team was missing 3 Allstars. AD has had no playoff success. Harden etc. Those are all the best players in the NBA.

[beekay414]

9 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

There might literally be 1 player in the NBA that is good enough for this definition. Lebron. 

Curry has only won a title with another MVP (plus incredible role players) or when the other team was missing 2 Allstars. KD only with another MVP. Kawhi when he was 4th in shots on the team in the regular season and playoffs or the other team was missing 3 Allstars. AD has had no playoff success. Harden etc. Those are all the best players in the NBA.

Oh, I'm sorry. Let me rephrase. He'll never be someone that's the main reason why you win a title. He's best suited as a playmaking #2. People saying that he's a high end #2 at worst are making my case for me. That means he's a probable #1 and that's just not even remotely true. 

But, again, time will tell. I'm not shy about my opinions and I've rarely ever backed off or bitched out (if ever). 

[beekay414]

2 hours ago, amac said:

I don’t really see how you can reasonably declare this about a 21 year old who’s one of the most polished offensive players for his age in recent memory. At worst he is going to be a high level #2 option 

Because I don't see where he gets better. That's how I can say that. Like I've said numerous times in this thread, age doesn't always mean there's more ceiling. He is what he is.

Where does he improve from here? What does he feasibly get better at? He's, quite honestly, already at his peak. It happens. It's not like he's a unicorn athlete or a generational talent. He would literally have to become a GOAT level 3 pt shooter to improve on what he is now. I just don't see it happening. 

[beekay414]

32 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

They've had the worst roster this year. Collins missed 25 gm, Huerter has been hurt like half the year plus hasn't been that good. 

After Trae the top 4 in minutes played are Hunter, Reddish, Bembry, and Jabari lolol. The best player there is a rookie who has been ok for a rookie. Reddish might be the worst offensive player in the NBA this year and if not him it might be Bembry. 

But they have a generational superstar and those other teams don't or so I've been told. 

It is what it is. I hope Trae proves me wrong as I don't wish failure on anyone but I see what I see and that's all there is to it. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by beekay414

[seminoles1]

49 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

They've had the worst roster this year. Collins missed 25 gm, Huerter has been hurt like half the year plus hasn't been that good.

Huerter's picked it up.

[redsoxsuck05]

1 hour ago, beekay414 said:

But they have a generational superstar and those other teams don't or so I've been told. 

It is what it is. I hope Trae proves me wrong as I don't wish failure on anyone but I see what I see and that's all there is to it. 

Lol bk I don’t think Trae is a generational superstar. I just think he’s a good player right now who can be great.

[Mox]

4 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Have you looked at the rosters of those other teams as well? They are just as trash as the Hawks overall. Trae is what he is. He's a box score guy. The on court impact doesn't reflect the stat line. 

LIS, time will tell. You call me wrong but never addressed my concerns with him that I posted last night. They are the same concerns I had with him coming out and he's done nothing to qualm my fears. It is what it is. 

What haven't I addressed? When are you going to present a fact that isn't easily discredited?

You said he faded last season as the year went on. He didn't. Month to month splits improved as the year went on.

You said he's on a hot streak and he'll cool off. He hasn't. He's shot at a high level far longer than he hasn't now.

You've said he's empty stats. Both RPM and On/Off reflect that he is impactful. He's the #1 PG in ORPM in the NBA and has easily the best On/Off of anyone on the Hawks. It's nearly +8.0. 

You said he's Kyrie. He's a better floor general and playmaker for others than Kyrie ever has been and ever will be.

You've said he's peaked. There is no evidence to suggest that. He's gotten better nearly every month of his career. You said he won't improve as a shooter. He's already made significant strides there in one and a half years in the NBA. You said he won't be an elite finisher because of his size, that hasn't stopped Steph Curry. Not saying he'll be elite at it but it's not impossible.

You said he won't be James Harden. Sure, because he won't have to be. James Harden is a GOAT level scorer. Trae likely can't be that. However, Trae is a better facilitator. I keep bringing up Nash and you keep brushing by it for some reason. He's going to be a more aggressive scoring Steve Nash.

You've said he won't be the best player on a title team. Probably true. I don't think anyone said he would be. There are only a handful of guy who can be. He can absolutely be the #1 guy on postseason team.

You've brought up Kuzma and Randle. Trae is so far above either of those two guys already they aren't remotely comparable. It's insulting to suggest it is.

You bring up rosters. Here are the top 5 minutes played guys on each team:

Hawks: Trae Young (age 21, PER 23.4), DeAndre Hunter (age 22, PER 7.9), Cam Reddish (age 20, PER 6.1), DeAndre Bembry (age 25, PER 10.1), Jabari Parker (age 24, PER 17.6)

Knicks: RJ Barrett (age 19, PER 10.6), Julius Randle (age 25, PER 17.1), Marcus Morris (age 30, PER 17.3), Bobby Portis (age 24, PER 15.4), Mitchell Robinson (age 21, PER 22.9)

Cavs: Collin Sexton (age 21, PER 15.1), Tristan Thompson (age 28, PER 17.3), Darius Garland (age 20, PER 9.5), Cedi Osman (age 24, PER 10.8), Kevin Love (age 31, PER 17.9)

Hornets: DeVonte Graham (age 24, PER 16.5), Terry Rozier (age 25, PER 15.4), Miles Bridges (age 21, PER 11.9), PJ Washington (age 21, PER 13.5), Cody Zeller (age 27, PER 19.0)

Do those look similar? Or is one team particularly young and particularly bad outside of one guy? The Hawks have 3 guys who are below the Knicks worst, 2 below the Cavs, and 3 below the Hornets. Without Trae this would be a three win team. Their ORTG with him on court is 108.2, without him it's 94.2. A 14.0 point swing in ORTG is literally larger than the difference between #1 Milwaukee (115.9) and #30 Golden State (102.7).

I don't even like Trae Young. I hated him as a prospect literally for every reason you have pointed out. I thought he was an empty stats chucker who didn't have any impact. His first month or two in the NBA seemed to be just that. I laughed, and assumed that was it. I was right and he would be a chucker forever. Then he improved, and improved and improved. He was actually a solid player. Then a good one. Now he's without question an elite offensive player. His defense sucks and that will always hold him back, absolutely. However, his offense is more than enough to provide strong value to any team he's on. Every impact metric shows it. It's not like Kyrie whose teams play better when he's hurt for the last 5 years. 

You can't keep saying time will tell if time keeps proving your theories to be incorrect. Time has already shown us you've been objectively wrong twice and there is a strong argument you've been wrong on my other accounts.

[beekay414]

@Bullet Club Well thought out post and definitely addressed a ton. 

The reason why I never addressed the Steve Nash thing is because I was never a Nash guy. I'll repeat this again. I will never be someone who fairly evaluates players that are all offense, no defense. I don't find them valuable. What good are you if you give it all right back up? That's just my thing. Always has been. Trae will always be a sieve on defense due to his lack of physical traits. For me, that's a no go. If you can't defend, I don't care about you. 

I just don't see Trae ever truly being an impact player. Nice shiny stats, no real results. That is why I keep saying "time will tell." Nobody will fairly judge that with the team he's on right now. We'll see if he ever truly wins. Is what it is. It's a preference thing to me. It's why I prefer Ja to Trae. Ja has the physical tools that Trae couldn't even dream of. 

[Mox]

8 hours ago, beekay414 said:

@Bullet Club Well thought out post and definitely addressed a ton. 

The reason why I never addressed the Steve Nash thing is because I was never a Nash guy. I'll repeat this again. I will never be someone who fairly evaluates players that are all offense, no defense. I don't find them valuable. What good are you if you give it all right back up? That's just my thing. Always has been. Trae will always be a sieve on defense due to his lack of physical traits. For me, that's a no go. If you can't defend, I don't care about you. 

I just don't see Trae ever truly being an impact player. Nice shiny stats, no real results. That is why I keep saying "time will tell." Nobody will fairly judge that with the team he's on right now. We'll see if he ever truly wins. Is what it is. It's a preference thing to me. It's why I prefer Ja to Trae. Ja has the physical tools that Trae couldn't even dream of. 

Now I see. That's where we differ. I think with the right roster construction you can hide Young/Nash to an extent defensively while allowing their offensive genius to flourish. Nash led some very good Suns teams (my favorite teams ever) deep in the postseason and he did it without an elite rim protector (which they desperately needed to overcome his deficiencies). Still as long as he remained they were good. Joe Johnson and Amare being out didn't make much of a difference. When Nash was out the team fell off a cliff, something 60%+ win percentage with him and 30% without him over a 5 year stretch. I think Collins can be Trae's Amare but with better defense.

I also think Ja is going to be exceptional. There was a reason I always said this draft was a 2 man class. Barrett was nowhere near him. I see Ja as someone who will end up being around peak John Wall. An exceptional athlete who is great on both ends. Personally I'd take Nash over Wall 10/10 times though.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Bullet Club

[El Ramster]

Don’t want to seem like a hater or discredit. It’s always a preference thing! And I love Jas game so much. Dudes going to be a mvp one day. 

[resilient part 2]

Checking tonight's box score, but Trae shooting 21 FTs?? WOW..

[Kirill]

I'm taking Ja over any young player not named Luka Doncic.