Sooo when’s he gone ?

[Rod Johnson]

5 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

Far and away a great QB is the most important piece in building a great team. 11 of the 12 probable playoff teams this year have a guy playing like a franchise QB.

After that I can go along with your 30 or 29 guys take but a good team can still be built in a lot of different ways. I get you that its not basketball but often great players can mask other defeciences. A great QB minimizes a poor OL. A great RB makes an OL look better. A dominant rusher, a shut down CB, game changing LB, elite safety...these guys directly affect the outcome of games.

Dorsey, and all of us, thought he nailed down that franchise QB and he recognized he needed a legit receiving threat for him to throw to. Opportunity arose and he took it. Would Zeitler and Peppers have made Baker play like a franchise QB? ... 

Definitely dispute your 8/12 playoff teams don't have #1 type guys. I'd argue 7/12 certainly do. Cooper/Thielan/Lockett/Thomas/Adams/Hill/Hopkins are #1 guys. Whether a guy is truly elite or not is a different conversation.

Landry is considerably better this year than last year ..most likely due to health and that he's the #2 guy.

The notion that having 2 good WRs, as opposed to a bunch of averages last year, has made the QB worse is....a thing. ..he's also got the #1 RB this year. Isn't it much more likely that DC's have deep dived into what Baker was doing well last season and game planned better for him?

I think losing Zeitler is huge, and definitely made him a worse QB.  I think that there was a decent amount of evidence that OBJ was falling off prior to trading him.  I really don't think you need a "#1 WR" with Jarvis as much as you need a guy who can take the top off a defense.  It's a matter of where he allocated his resources, towards what he thought was an elite WR, who hasn't played like one for a couple of seasons.  Im not sure the season Peppers is having, but we are running out Justin Burris and Redwine for significant snaps now, and we started the season with Burnett and Murray who are world beaters there either.

I mean maybe the problem is that Odell now isn't the Odell of 3 or 4 seasons ago, but I don't give Dorsey a pass because that regression wasn't unforeseeable.

Instead of building on top of what was a solid foundation last season Dorsey gutted the entire project.  We could have easily improved from 7 wins last season by shoring up some holes at offensive line, adding depth across the board, and expecting your 1st and 2nd year guys to naturally improve in the roles they already were playing.  Instead we are going to win 7 games again, but this time the arrow might be pointing down or sideways instead of up because we got older and more expensive.

I'm sure Baker's tape being out there has something to do with it, but I don't think we are even running a lot of the same stuff as last year.  At this point of the season our defense is losing us games anyways, and I think that's a matter of depth.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Rod Johnson

[BrownLeader]

10 hours ago, Rod Johnson said:

I think losing Zeitler is huge, and definitely made him a worse QB.  I think that there was a decent amount of evidence that OBJ was falling off prior to trading him.  I really don't think you need a "#1 WR" with Jarvis as much as you need a guy who can take the top off a defense.  It's a matter of where he allocated his resources, towards what he thought was an elite WR, who hasn't played like one for a couple of seasons.  Im not sure the season Peppers is having, but we are running out Justin Burris and Redwine for significant snaps now, and we started the season with Burnett and Murray who are world beaters there either.

I mean maybe the problem is that Odell now isn't the Odell of 3 or 4 seasons ago, but I don't give Dorsey a pass because that regression wasn't unforeseeable.

Instead of building on top of what was a solid foundation last season Dorsey gutted the entire project.  We could have easily improved from 7 wins last season by shoring up some holes at offensive line, adding depth across the board, and expecting your 1st and 2nd year guys to naturally improve in the roles they already were playing.  Instead we are going to win 7 games again, but this time the arrow might be pointing down or sideways instead of up because we got older and more expensive.

I'm sure Baker's tape being out there has something to do with it, but I don't think we are even running a lot of the same stuff as last year.  At this point of the season our defense is losing us games anyways, and I think that's a matter of depth.

Losing a decent OG weakens a line but it doesn't turn a franchise QB into a bad one.

"decent amount of evidence OBJ was falling off" ...No there wasn't. He's playing this season in a new offense with one of the worst QBs in the league after spending his whole career with a borderline HOF'er....but his production has got to be an indicator he's a jag now?

Peppers is decent. Similar to Zeitler..both decent starters but not really good or great players.

Fair point about allocating resources but trading two average/decent starters on either side of the ball for an all pro WR certainly isn't gutting the project. Doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake either but to attribute that to why the QB fell off is just reaching.

Kitchens drastically changing the offense that got him the HC job in the first place... just because....doesn't make any kind of logic. It's the same offense. Defenses are just playing it differently. ..and the 2nd yr QB has bizarrely plummeted. Imo that's why it looks different.

I'll still contend that if Baker's play doesn't slip so drastically, the approach Dorsey took doesn't look bad at all. But when Kitchens, who was already over his skis even with a good QB, gets dealt a terribly regressing QB, it just exacerbated what he wasn't good at or ready for.

Edited December 17, 2019 by BrownLeader

[big poppa pump]

I stopped after Zeitler decent, and Eli HOF er.  Eli wasn't HOF'er during the Beckham years.

[matt27j]

Dump the problem makers. Kitch, Landry, OBJ. 

Free up that cap for Chubb, Hunt, Scho and soon after that Myles, Jobi and Baker will be up. 

Everyone else's egos can be kept in check. Baker is the wildcard. 

People can argue about guards and safeties but unless they are the most easily replaceable positions. Dorsey gave it a shot getting 2 wr's with known attitude problems. Its not working out so just get some draft capital and move on.

In a wr deep draft this is the year to do it. Other than OL, DL depth and WR there's not a lot to be spending high picks on.

[DaWg_LB.]

14 minutes ago, matt27j said:

Dump the problem makers. Kitch, Landry, OBJ. 

Free up that cap for Chubb, Hunt, Scho and soon after that Myles, Jobi and Baker will be up. 

Everyone else's egos can be kept in check. Baker is the wildcard. 

People can argue about guards and safeties but unless they are the most easily replaceable positions. Dorsey gave it a shot getting 2 wr's with known attitude problems. Its not working out so just get some draft capital and move on.

In a wr deep draft this is the year to do it. Other than OL, DL depth and WR there's not a lot to be spending high picks on.

 

 

Seppuku is the only answer LOL

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 hours ago, big poppa pump said:

I stopped after Zeitler decent,

To be fair, the guy has never even been to a pro bowl.

He’s not great, nor is he mediocre, so you’re more or less just arguing semantics.

2 hours ago, big poppa pump said:

and Eli HOF er.  Eli wasn't HOF'er during the Beckham years.

What years was he then?

Some or his best years were with OBJ, ‘14 and ‘15 specifically.

On a side note, he’s never been an incredible QB statistically and tbh had no business being in the HOF.  I’m not sure there was ever a time he was a top 5 QB in the league during his career. If his name weren’t Manning we wouldn’t be having this discussion imo.

[big poppa pump]

13 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

To be fair, the guy has never even been to a pro bowl.

He’s not great, nor is he mediocre, so you’re more or less just arguing semantics.

What years was he then?

Some or his best years were with OBJ, ‘14 and ‘15 specifically.

On a side note, he’s never been an incredible QB statistically and tbh had no business being in the HOF.  I’m not sure there was ever a time he was a top 5 QB in the league during his career. If his name weren’t Manning we wouldn’t be having this discussion imo.

It's hard to determine what you are getting from a Guard, but Zeitler was an above average player wherever he's been.  I don't put a ton of stock in the PFF ratings, but I thought he was a top 10 guard this year.

 

and really

 

Eli and HOF shouldn't be in the same sentence imo.  He's a turnover machine, much like Baker has been this year.

[mtmmike]

To me the trade for obj was 2fold get a1000 yard receiver.

then draft a guard at lesser cost that will be better than his predecessor.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

47 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

It's hard to determine what you are getting from a Guard, but Zeitler was an above average player wherever he's been.  I don't put a ton of stock in the PFF ratings, but I thought he was a top 10 guard this year.

I like him more than most I think, so I agree.

I also live in Cincy and saw him play plenty here and thought highly of him before we got him.

Im also not a big fan of creating one hole to fill another, but with the young stud muffin Corbett waiting to dominate the league, I understood the “Why”.

47 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

 

and really

 

Eli and HOF shouldn't be in the same sentence imo.  He's a turnover machine, much like Baker has been this year.

Agreed. 

But, it does go to show you don’t have to have a generational QB to win a super bowl, you need a guy who can make plays, which I think Baker can do.

[big poppa pump]

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I like him more than most I think, so I agree.

I also live in Cincy and saw him play plenty here and thought highly of him before we got him.

Im also not a big fan of creating one hole to fill another, but with the young stud muffin Corbett waiting to dominate the league, I understood the “Why”.

Agreed. 

But, it does go to show you don’t have to have a generational QB to win a super bowl, you need a guy who can make plays, which I think Baker can do.

Yea, I still think baker can, and will be an above average QB.  In fact, I really think he will be better than Eli when it's all said and done.  He needs to be in a system that showcases his talent.  Hopefully that is sooner rather than later.

[NateDawg]

8 days is probably your answer. Black Monday then the search begins (again).

[mistakey]

On 12/15/2019 at 7:36 PM, Mind Character said:

There's the slimmest of chances Freddie gets fired.

What people seem to be missing is that:

1.) Dorsey doesn't want to hire a HC that can take organizational power. 

2.) Baker is team Freddie

3.) Dorsey put together a lot of the coaching staff and doesn't want to see them leave.

4.) Freddie can still blame or fire other coaches with the (I didn't get to hire my guys; Steve Wilks wasn't my guy).

5.) Freddie can still give up play-calling to save his job.

6.) The Haslam's scared about their perception around the league as having a quick hook.

---

Freddie's coming back. Book it.

hey turns out i came back to this page randomly

[ditchdigger]

49 minutes ago, mistakey said:

hey turns out i came back to this page randomly

You can tell someone is going to be big wrong when they say "book it".

[NudeTayne]

16 minutes ago, ditchdigger said:

You can tell someone is going to be big wrong when they say "book it".

In before, "Well, that was assuming Dorsey was still GM. I thought that was pretty clear in, hold on...*rummages up ambiguous post from 1991 about coaches and GMs to back this up*."

Edited February 8, 2020 by NudeTayne
Book it

[NateDawg]