Kmart128 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, mse326 said: There is a post a few above talking about what counts as "downing" I can see the signal saying I'm not coming out and tossing it to the ref as being considered a "similar action" Per the actual rule book, saying you aren't coming out isn't a thing https://operations.nfl.com/media/3831/2019-playing-rules.pdf Quote RULE 7- BALL IN PLAY, DEAD BALL, SCRIMMAGESECTION 2 - DEAD BALLARTICLE 1. DEAD BALL DECLARED.An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:(d) when a runner declares himself down by:(1) falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance.(2) sliding. When a runner slides, the ball is dead the instant he touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet. The relevant phrase is "clearly making no immediate effort to advance." It can be argued both ways. The interesting thing is technically there wasn't a review from the booth but from "backup refs." Never heard that ever done that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I'm referring to this play right here. The refs made the correct call here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, mse326 said: But you have to look at the rulebook for what "down" means that is what the question is. Is what he did giving himself up such that he is declared down, that is what I don't know I'll quote myself again.... Quote when a runner declares himself down by: falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance. Did he fall to the ground or kneel and clearly make no immediate effort to advance? Did he fall or kneel: No The next statement is AND so it doesn't matter because he didn't do the first part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Hell yes! Nice to root for a team that doesnt suck it like a 2 dollar hooker. Whelp time to go back to a Cowboys tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Woz said: The relevant phrase is "clearly making no immediate effort to advance." It can be argued both ways AND not OR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmart128 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, showtime said: The play is not about common sense and may not even be in the NFL rule book. That was something returners have been doing all season long. The refs and the NFL set a precedent that putting both arms out to signal you're giving yourself up was acceptable. So when the returner for the Texans did that, in his mind he was just doing what he had done in the past. Even if that's not apart of the rule book, that needs to continue to be accepted going forward. If it's an issue, then change it to how it's supposed to be next season. That is not true... returners only do that if they catch the ball out of bounds or the ball hit the ground prior to it being fielded. In which case its properly ruled a touchback. However in this case neither of those things happen... and he didnt fall to the ground to give himself up. Its a fumble or an illegal forward pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, showtime said: I'm referring to this play right here. The refs made the correct call here. Ah, you said TItans in your post. The initial call of TD is correct by the book. Overturning it was incorrect, but the rulebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Woz said: Per the actual rule book, saying you aren't coming out isn't a thing https://operations.nfl.com/media/3831/2019-playing-rules.pdf The relevant phrase is "clearly making no immediate effort to advance." It can be argued both ways. The interesting thing is technically there wasn't a review from the booth but from "backup refs." Never heard that ever done that way. I think @showtime is right about this. Whether the rule book says that is giving yourself up and therefore down is immaterial since the refs and NFL have been saying it is all season (and more). You can't change that now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, mse326 said: I think @showtime is right about this. Whether the rule book says that is giving yourself up and therefore down is immaterial since the refs and NFL have been saying it is all season (and more). You can't change that now. Exactly. The NFL and refs have set a precedent all season that that was acceptable. Now all of a sudden it's not? It's something they have to change next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, kingseanjohn said: I'll quote myself again.... Did he fall to the ground or kneel and clearly make no immediate effort to advance? Did he fall or kneel: No The next statement is AND so it doesn't matter because he didn't do the first part. I get that, but again we know that in sports the refs allow stuff that isn't in the rule book that sets a precedent. If that has been allowed all season then it can't change now. The ref in the booth right away said that that was wrong and all game he was going to pains to back up the refs. Then you have 4+ other refs running saying no. At some point you have to realize this is the way it is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, mse326 said: I think @showtime is right about this. Whether the rule book says that is giving yourself up and therefore down is immaterial since the refs and NFL have been saying it is all season (and more). You can't change that now. Except when players do that, they aren't catching the ball. They're letting it hit the ground, which constitutes a touchback. In this case, a player touches the ball and never goes down. He fumbled or at worst, illegal forward pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, mse326 said: I think @showtime is right about this. Whether the rule book says that is giving yourself up and therefore down is immaterial since the refs and NFL have been saying it is all season (and more). You can't change that now. Is there an example of them "saying it is all season"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, mse326 said: I get that, but again we know that in sports the refs allow stuff that isn't in the rule book that sets a precedent. If that has been allowed all season then it can't change now. The ref in the booth right away said that that was wrong and all game he was going to pains to back up the refs. Then you have 4+ other refs running saying no. At some point you have to realize this is the way it is done. Show me ONE example of this during the season. Just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Soggust said: Is there an example of them "saying it is all season"? I don't have any video evidence. One of the announcers during the game at that moment said he has seen other kickoff returners do that exact same motion and it was fine in other games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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