Time To Heal (Or How I Learned to Stop Crying and Look Forward to the 2020 Season and Love the Future)

[Cakeshoppe]

Here's our defense with their 40 times and percentiles for their position group during the year they were drafted:

Jaire Alexander - 4.38 (89)
Kevin King - 4.43 (73)
Adrian Amos - 4.56 (51)
Darnell Savage - 4.36 (97)
Tramon Williams*
Blake Martinez - 4.71 (65)
Za’Darius Smith - 4.83 (49)
Preston Smith - 4.74 (72)
Kenny Clark - 5.06 (57)
Dean Lowry - 4.87 (39)
Tyler Lancaster - 5.03 (~55**)

*The number I found for Tramon is 4.57 and he's old enough that that's pretty obsolete now. I'll just count him as below average.

**Lancaster didn't get a combine invite, but I've estimated his percentile based on the percentiles of players who ran similar times. Average for IDL that year was 5.10

 

So we have two below average, 4 in the ballpark of average, and everyone else above average. At least in relation to their combine classes. Past the LOS, we have one minus and one average.

People have been complaining about speed for ages and we've added a ton, especially to the secondary, yet the complaints persist. We added even more speed in Burks (4.59/81), Gary (4.58/97), Hollamn (4.38) Tony Brown (4.35/92), Summers (4.51/94), M. Adams (4.87/92), Josh Jones (4.41/92), but those guys struggled to see snaps. "Speed" isn't some cureall you can just throw at a defense and make it better. You need quality players and sure, it's nice if they are particularly gifted athletes, but being a quality player will trump being a quality athlete every time.

If the problem is guys getting there late, there's so much more that goes into that than just being fast. There's read times, being in the correct place to start with, proper angles, confidence that the spot you're going to is the correct one, ability to disengage from blocks/contact. When all those factors are handled well, a player can use whatever speed they have well, but if they aren't , that will bottleneck performance long before speed does. Over a distance of 20 yards, the difference between a + speed guy and a - speed guy is like half a yard

[squire12]

23 minutes ago, Cakeshoppe said:

Here's our defense with their 40 times and percentiles for their position group during the year they were drafted:

Jaire Alexander - 4.38 (89)
Kevin King - 4.43 (73)
Adrian Amos - 4.56 (51)
Darnell Savage - 4.36 (97)
Tramon Williams*
Blake Martinez - 4.71 (65)
Za’Darius Smith - 4.83 (49)
Preston Smith - 4.74 (72)
Kenny Clark - 5.06 (57)
Dean Lowry - 4.87 (39)
Tyler Lancaster - 5.03 (~55**)

*The number I found for Tramon is 4.57 and he's old enough that that's pretty obsolete now. I'll just count him as below average.

**Lancaster didn't get a combine invite, but I've estimated his percentile based on the percentiles of players who ran similar times. Average for IDL that year was 5.10

 

So we have two below average, 4 in the ballpark of average, and everyone else above average. At least in relation to their combine classes. Past the LOS, we have one minus and one average.

People have been complaining about speed for ages and we've added a ton, especially to the secondary, yet the complaints persist. We added even more speed in Burks (4.59/81), Gary (4.58/97), Hollamn (4.38) Tony Brown (4.35/92), Summers (4.51/94), M. Adams (4.87/92), Josh Jones (4.41/92), but those guys struggled to see snaps. "Speed" isn't some cureall you can just throw at a defense and make it better. You need quality players and sure, it's nice if they are particularly gifted athletes, but being a quality player will trump being a quality athlete every time.

If the problem is guys getting there late, there's so much more that goes into that than just being fast. There's read times, being in the correct place to start with, proper angles, confidence that the spot you're going to is the correct one, ability to disengage from blocks/contact. When all those factors are handled well, a player can use whatever speed they have well, but if they aren't , that will bottleneck performance long before speed does. Over a distance of 20 yards, the difference between a + speed guy and a - speed guy is like half a yard

Are these relative to the players in their entire draft class or those players that got drafted?

[Cakeshoppe]

4 minutes ago, squire12 said:

Are these relative to the players in their entire draft class or those players that got drafted?

Relative to their entire combine class. It's probably fair to guess that scores of just the players who got drafted would be slightly higher than scores of the full combine, but I didn't have a source for just drafted players.

[AlexGreen#20]

33 minutes ago, Cakeshoppe said:

Here's our defense with their 40 times and percentiles for their position group during the year they were drafted:

Jaire Alexander - 4.38 (89)
Kevin King - 4.43 (73)
Adrian Amos - 4.56 (51)
Darnell Savage - 4.36 (97)
Tramon Williams*
Blake Martinez - 4.71 (65)
Za’Darius Smith - 4.83 (49)
Preston Smith - 4.74 (72)
Kenny Clark - 5.06 (57)
Dean Lowry - 4.87 (39)
Tyler Lancaster - 5.03 (~55**)

*The number I found for Tramon is 4.57 and he's old enough that that's pretty obsolete now. I'll just count him as below average.

**Lancaster didn't get a combine invite, but I've estimated his percentile based on the percentiles of players who ran similar times. Average for IDL that year was 5.10

 

So we have two below average, 4 in the ballpark of average, and everyone else above average. At least in relation to their combine classes. Past the LOS, we have one minus and one average.

People have been complaining about speed for ages and we've added a ton, especially to the secondary, yet the complaints persist. We added even more speed in Burks (4.59/81), Gary (4.58/97), Hollamn (4.38) Tony Brown (4.35/92), Summers (4.51/94), M. Adams (4.87/92), Josh Jones (4.41/92), but those guys struggled to see snaps. "Speed" isn't some cureall you can just throw at a defense and make it better. You need quality players and sure, it's nice if they are particularly gifted athletes, but being a quality player will trump being a quality athlete every time.

If the problem is guys getting there late, there's so much more that goes into that than just being fast. There's read times, being in the correct place to start with, proper angles, confidence that the spot you're going to is the correct one, ability to disengage from blocks/contact. When all those factors are handled well, a player can use whatever speed they have well, but if they aren't , that will bottleneck performance long before speed does. Over a distance of 20 yards, the difference between a + speed guy and a - speed guy is like half a yard

Pretty sure Tramon was a 4.3 guy coming out?

Also compare Lowry to DTs (he plays most of his his reps at 3T) and his 40 time looks great.

[Cakeshoppe]

1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Pretty sure Tramon was a 4.3 guy coming out?

Also compare Lowry to DTs (he plays most of his his reps at 3T) and his 40 time looks great.

yeah I thought I remembered Williams being a burner out of college but an admittedly quick search said 4.57 in the first result and I didn't spend much time checking because that was almost 15 years ago anyway.

Against DL overall, Lowry is 64th percentile and against IDL he's 92nd

[{Family Ghost}]

Some joker here used to refer to him as Tramon "Slowpoke" Williams. 

[HighCalebR]

1 minute ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Some joker here used to refer to him as Tramon "Slowpoke" Williams. 

Oh god no.

Yeah I couldn't find anything on the webz when I was looking for Tramon some time ago.. probably tested poor and that's why he went undrafted? IDK speed wasn't a problem for him when he got to town.

[TheOnlyThing]

1 hour ago, squire12 said:

Are these relative to the players in their entire draft class or those players that got drafted?

There are no real SPEED issues with the defensive line or at OLB on the Packers defense.

In the secondary, Jaire and Savage are fast and Amos and King are fast enough.

The problem is at LB. Martinez 's 40 time was a 4.71. Goodson's was a 4.69.

By comparison the Niners LBs on Sunday were Kwon Alexander 4.55, Fred Warner 4.64, and Dre Greenlaw 4.65.

Other top ILB 40 times include Wagner (4.45/PRO DAY), Kuechly (4.58), and Kendricks (4.61).

The Pack drafted Burks (and his 4.59 40 time) to add speed and athleticism at ILB, but unfortunately he is apparently so lacking in other aspects of the job that he has hardly seen the field in two seasons.

 

[Pugger]

1 hour ago, Cakeshoppe said:

Here's our defense with their 40 times and percentiles for their position group during the year they were drafted:

Jaire Alexander - 4.38 (89)
Kevin King - 4.43 (73)
Adrian Amos - 4.56 (51)
Darnell Savage - 4.36 (97)
Tramon Williams*
Blake Martinez - 4.71 (65)
Za’Darius Smith - 4.83 (49)
Preston Smith - 4.74 (72)
Kenny Clark - 5.06 (57)
Dean Lowry - 4.87 (39)
Tyler Lancaster - 5.03 (~55**)

*The number I found for Tramon is 4.57 and he's old enough that that's pretty obsolete now. I'll just count him as below average.

**Lancaster didn't get a combine invite, but I've estimated his percentile based on the percentiles of players who ran similar times. Average for IDL that year was 5.10

 

So we have two below average, 4 in the ballpark of average, and everyone else above average. At least in relation to their combine classes. Past the LOS, we have one minus and one average.

People have been complaining about speed for ages and we've added a ton, especially to the secondary, yet the complaints persist. We added even more speed in Burks (4.59/81), Gary (4.58/97), Hollamn (4.38) Tony Brown (4.35/92), Summers (4.51/94), M. Adams (4.87/92), Josh Jones (4.41/92), but those guys struggled to see snaps. "Speed" isn't some cureall you can just throw at a defense and make it better. You need quality players and sure, it's nice if they are particularly gifted athletes, but being a quality player will trump being a quality athlete every time.

If the problem is guys getting there late, there's so much more that goes into that than just being fast. There's read times, being in the correct place to start with, proper angles, confidence that the spot you're going to is the correct one, ability to disengage from blocks/contact. When all those factors are handled well, a player can use whatever speed they have well, but if they aren't , that will bottleneck performance long before speed does. Over a distance of 20 yards, the difference between a + speed guy and a - speed guy is like half a yard

And in this league being late can be the difference between a short gain and a TD run.  Our tackling at times leaves a lot to be desired too.  The 9er defenders were tackling machines.

[AlexGreen#20]

31 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

There are no real SPEED issues with the defensive line or at OLB on the Packers defense.

In the secondary, Jaire and Savage are fast and Amos and King are fast enough.

The problem is at LB. Martinez 's 40 time was a 4.71. Goodson's was a 4.69.

By comparison the Niners LBs on Sunday were Kwon Alexander 4.55, Fred Warner 4.64, and Dre Greenlaw 4.65.

Other top ILB 40 times include Wagner (4.45/PRO DAY), Kuechly (4.58), and Kendricks (4.61).

The Pack drafted Burks (and his 4.59 40 time) to add speed and athleticism at ILB, but unfortunately he is apparently so lacking in other aspects of the job that he has hardly seen the field in two seasons.

 

You really don't understand the absurdity of complaining about a .07 seconds in a 40 time? 

Martinez wasn't even close to the reason we lost. 

[MacReady]

Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock had Speed.

[AlexGreen#20]

I call this sequence of images: The total abject failure to keep your ILBs clean. Alternatively known as the second quarter.

Note that this is just from the second quarter.

[pacman5252]

44 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I call this sequence of images: The total abject failure to keep your ILBs clean. Alternatively known as the second quarter.

Note that this is just from the second quarter.

Yeah, I get wanting to move on from Blake, but the like was thr gap discipline and line play was clearly the real fail. You have edges running out of gaps and interior guys getting worked. In prime Ray Lewis wouldn’t have helped much here

[TheOnlyThing]

8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You really don't understand the absurdity of complaining about a .07 seconds in a 40 time? 

Martinez wasn't even close to the reason we lost. 

Who said Martinez was the reason we lost to SF other than you making up that argument?

The discussion you entered into was about the Packers speed deficiencies.

I merely pointed out the indisputable fact that Blake is slower than all of the 49ers LBs and considerably slower than other top ILBs.

And it is not exactly a revelation that Martinez is not a top athlete. From his 2016 scouting combine report:

WEAKNESSES

Slow twitch with borderline play speed. Below average lateral quickness

[MacReady]

9 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I call this sequence of images: The total abject failure to keep your ILBs clean. Alternatively known as the second quarter.

Note that this is just from the second quarter.

@TheOnlyThing @packfanfb.