What should qualify a player for the Hall of Fame?

[Hukos]

5 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Rivers will walk right into the HOF, dont kid yourself.

I don't think Matt Ryan belongs in the Hall of Fame and he has more of an argument than Rivers does, because of his MVP and his All-Pro. He's also probably going to have higher career stats by the time Matt retires. I still don't think that should be good enough to make the Hall. Matt's average Falcons squad was also not nearly as talented (especially on defense) as the Chargers squads that Rivers has lead.

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, Hukos said:

I don't think Matt Ryan belongs in the Hall of Fame and he has more of an argument than Rivers does, because of his MVP and his All-Pro. He's also probably going to have higher career stats by the time Matt retires. I still don't think that should be good enough to make the Hall. Matt's average Falcons squad was also not nearly as talented (especially on defense) as the Chargers squads that Rivers has lead.

I dont think he does. The aspects you refer to about Ryan are based off a singular season, not a career. HOF is not based on a singular season. I have a hard time seeing Ryan surpass Rivers in his production because of Rivers durability and how he has never missed a start and he isnt that close when you look at per season efficiency. 

I don't know what barometers are universal. But when we look at seasons with 30 plus tds passes. Rivers has 6, Ryan has 3. Only Peyton, Brees, Favre and Tom have more than Rivers.

If you look at seasons with 4200 yds, only Brees has more than Rivers and Rivers has 3 more than Ryan, who started 2 years after Rivers. If you go to 4500, Ryan is actually tied for 2nd and 1 ahead of Rivers.

If you go seasons with 65% comp, only Peyton and Brees have more than Rivers. 

If you go by 8.0 ypa, with atleast 400 attempts, as less attempts increase probability of higher ypa. Than Rivers is alone at #1 with 5. Ryan has 2. 

How about 100 passer rating with atleast 400 attempts? 

Rivers with 5. Brady, Peyton and Rodgers with 6 and Brees with 8. Ryan has 2.

Rivers with 8 probowls to Ryans 4. 

 

If a rb has 7 seasons of 1500 yds rushing at 5.2 ypc and 15 tds, but played in the era with the best rbs ever and never had the marquee season they did and their individual season accolades likes MVP and all pro, because he played in same era with the best RBs of all time, should that diminish that RB on a holistic view of the all time landscape of NFL rbs?

Rivers making it or missing the HOF would be a exception to the rule. What qbs all time have been as good and productive as Rivers arent in the HOF? Yes when he makes it he will be the only qb without a SB, mvp or all pro. Either way he is a rare exception. 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Bearerofnews

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

Pretty bogus to put dominance and efficiency in with Rivers. You point to the 08-10 span, where even if he was the best QB in all of those seasons (he wasn’t), that’s a far stretch to call him dominant for a career. Likewise with efficiency, when was the last time Rivers threw for under double digit interceptions? His TDs were always at least decent if not very good, but they hardly reached great heights. His completion percentage and passer ratings are on his side, but I’d never call Rivers one of the more efficient guys, especially in the context of a HOF discussion. 

Rivers has been productive and very durable, though. Has had times of good efficiency and high end play (dominant though, meh). But to say he dominated the league for his whole career or was efficient his entire career is a flat-stretch. Those are things one would say about Peyton Manning.

For that STRETCH of time 08 to 10, 3 years. What QB outplayed Rivers?

Even when you stretch it beyond 3 years, he is only right behind what many consider 4 of the 8 best qbs ever.

What do you consider efficient or dominant play? Is it based on wins, team success or some measurement of hitting benchmarks statistically per season?

[Soko]

30 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

For that STRETCH of time 08 to 10, 3 years. What QB outplayed Rivers?

Purely regarding stats? That was what you focused on above, want to clarify that that’s what you mean now. 

30 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Even when you stretch it beyond 3 years, he is only right behind what many consider 4 of the 8 best qbs ever.

Agreed, in most seasons Rivers was that 5-7 guy. Just about always right there on the cusp.

30 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

What do you consider efficient or dominant play? Is it based on wins, team success or some measurement of hitting benchmarks statistically per season?

Efficiency? TD%, INT%, passer rating, completion percentage, etc. Stuff that incredibly isn’t bulk-reliant. Rivers shows up in some of those but not all. 

Dominance is more about A) performance compared to peers, and B) dominating opponents. 

[Tugboat]

My own personal approval process.

 

Which relies on a rigorous estimation of "raw stats" vs "notoriety" and "major accomplishments at their peak".

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

9 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

For that STRETCH of time 08 to 10, 3 years. What QB outplayed Rivers?

Players don't just get in based on longevity + a 3 year stretch where they were top 3 at their position, though. Rivers, while a good player in his own right, shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. From this era, it's really only Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and Russell Wilson upcoming. Guys like Rivers or Matt Ryan were just good players in an era where it was easier than ever to accumulate great stats at QB. The guys I just mentioned were all dudes who broke records or transcended greatness.

 

[Ryan_W]

Blame how tough it is to get-in on phenoms like Russell Wilson who compile a HOF career in 8 years

if Mahomes & Lamar strangle the NFL for 5 years maybe the impossible happens and even Rodgers isn't looking like the lock for first ballot anymore, if he's pedestrian; or injured/drops off

role models all too often live long enough to disappoint us;

[SkippyX]

Between 2011 and 2014 Rodgers QB rating was 112.6

• The league average was about 86.

His TD to INT numbers are astronomical 364 to 84 or 4.34 to 1 (3.33 to 1 in the playoffs)

• There are only 2 other QBs above 3 to 1  (Wilson and Brady) (both are just over 2 to 1 in the playoffs)
• Mahomes will be the only other above 4 once he qualifies (4.22 now) (currently infinity in the playoffs at 11 TDs to 0 picks)
• Jackson is also above 4 after 22 starts (but 1 to 1 in the playoffs)

Rodgers is a lock to be 1st ballot no matter what new players do.

• 2 time league MVP and a SB MVP as well

Rodgers, Wilson, and Mahomes are all incredible and what they do takes nothing away from the other 2.

[Hukos]

Rodgers will absolutely get in just because his peak was so brilliant. Post-2014 Rodgers is nowhere near as good as pre-2014 Rodgers (he's pretty much a pretty good, but not elite/amazing qb nowadays), but that peak was good enough that if Rodgers retired in 2014, I'd have no problem with him getting into the Hall of Fame.

[Bearerofnews]

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Purely regarding stats? That was what you focused on above, want to clarify that that’s what you mean now. 

Yes stats. To me that is the closest way to guage the quality of an individual player. 

Quote

Agreed, in most seasons Rivers was that 5-7 guy. Just about always right there on the cusp.

But is that bad, when you are talking about possibly 4 of the top 7 ever at their position?

You take out arguably top 2 qbs of all time in Brady and Peyton from Rivers era and he very likely is top 3 for his era. There was potential post season runs those 2 prevented, AFCC berths, SB berths, all pros they took and even MVPs. 

Rivers was unfortunate to play on a stacked era for qbs.

Quote

Efficiency? TD%, INT%, passer rating, completion percentage, etc. Stuff that incredibly isn’t bulk-reliant. Rivers shows up in some of those but not all. 

Dominance is more about A) performance compared to peers, and B) dominating opponents. 

Ok so if we go say 5.5 td%, with under 2.5 int%, atleast 400 attempts with 100 passer rating.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=total&year_min=1920&year_max=2019&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos[]=qb&draft_year_min=1936&draft_year_max=2019&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&draft_pick_in_round=pick_overall&conference=any&draft_pos[]=qb&draft_pos[]=rb&draft_pos[]=wr&draft_pos[]=te&draft_pos[]=e&draft_pos[]=t&draft_pos[]=g&draft_pos[]=c&draft_pos[]=ol&draft_pos[]=dt&draft_pos[]=de&draft_pos[]=dl&draft_pos[]=ilb&draft_pos[]=olb&draft_pos[]=lb&draft_pos[]=cb&draft_pos[]=s&draft_pos[]=db&draft_pos[]=k&draft_pos[]=p&c1stat=pass_td_perc&c1comp=gt&c1val=5.5&c2stat=pass_int_perc&c2comp=lt&c2val=2.5&c3stat=pass_att&c3comp=gt&c3val=400&c4stat=pass_rating&c4comp=gt&c4val=100&c5val=1.0&order_by=pass_td

 

I think calling Rivers just good, is criminally underrating one of the most prolific and efficient qbs all time. Yes he lacks that record breaking marquee season, or that big post season moment or run. But on a production and efficiency level, with consistent play. He is all time.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bearerofnews

[Soko]

 

1 hour ago, Bearerofnews said:

But is that bad, when you are talking about possibly 4 of the top 7 ever at their position?

You take out arguably top 2 qbs of all time in Brady and Peyton from Rivers era and he very likely is top 3 for his era. There was potential post season runs those 2 prevented, AFCC berths, SB berths, all pros they took and even MVPs. 

Rivers was unfortunate to play on a stacked era for qbs.

I agree, it isn’t his fault, but it’s reality. At the end of the day, we can’t prognosticate on how things would be if these things did or didn’t happen a certain way. 

Thats neither here nor there because I wasn’t arguing Rivers’ HOF odds. Just saying that calling him dominant, especially in regards to his peers, untrue.

1 hour ago, Bearerofnews said:

(Edit, i think i did the above criteria wrong)

I think calling Rivers just good, is criminally underrating one of the most prolific and efficient qbs all time. Yes he lacks that record breaking marquee season, or that big post season moment or run. But on a production and efficiency level, with consistent play. He is all time.

Again, I wasn’t really here to bring up his HOF worthiness. He’s not a HOFer for me, but that wasn’t my point. Rivers had consistency, but he gave the ball away too much to call him efficient.

[VigilantZombie]

Rivers was a really good QB. But it's not Hall of Really Good.

Its the Hall of Fame aka greatness.

He wasnt a great QB and for as much as he ran his mouth, you'd think he had won something of substance. But he actually didnt. If anything he was overrated. For a really long time he played in a pretty terrible division and yet still wasn't good enough to win a Super Bowl

Edited January 29, 2020 by wwhickok

[Malik]

If Philip Rivers gets in what's the argument against someone like Carson Palmer honestly? Rivers was better but it's not like the gap was massive. 

[lancerman]

On 1/28/2020 at 8:44 PM, Malik said:

If Philip Rivers gets in what's the argument against someone like Carson Palmer honestly? Rivers was better but it's not like the gap was massive. 

But this is why Eli is problematic. Because if/when he gets in, you have alot of guys who can credibly say "well I was better than him". 

Rule of thumb, you shouldn't be the worst at your position to be in the HOF. Second rule of thumb, you should be able to stand next to all your peers in the HOF and credibly feel like you belong. Third rule of thumb, you should be able to take the other top 2 guys at your position in your era and have a real argument for being better or at least on par with them. 

[SmittyBacall]

I've never watched Philip Rivers and thought, "Wow, that dude is a future Hall of Famer".