Kobe Bryant has died in helicopter crash

[beekay414]

 

[titanrick]

I have an interesting perspective that others may find value in.  I couldn't stand Kobe as a player because he was so good and so cocky.  When the rape allegations came out, my dislike turned to hate.  The way he and his legal team smeared that girl in public was reprehensible.  His "you guys know me" press conference reeked of privilege and arrogance.  Honestly, I never paid much attention after that.  Rooted against him every chance I had.  So when I read through this thread, my skin crawled when people would seamlessly shift from "what an incredible basketball player" to "what an incredible human being".  But this certainly wasn't the time to bring up the negative aspects, so I kept my online mouth shut. 

However, I did start researching the whole event a little more.  If I'm being honest, it was probably from a motivation to confirm that he wasn't this great human being at all.  But that's not really what I found.  Not entirely.  I'm still not excusing anything he did - her side of the story is simply awful.  But I hadn't realized he read a statement in court apologizing to the victim.  His statement seemed heart-felt and that was powerful to me.  It seems to frame the rest of his life more fully - that he became a better person after that incident.  I think some people (not pointing any fingers) want to stick their head in the sand and just say "if the charges were dropped, he did nothing wrong."  I can't do that.  As much as I look at the loss of his daughter as a tragedy because I have a daughter about that age, I also look at the rape accusation from the same lens - I have a daughter about that age.

It's a complicated thing to try to sum up a life in a couple quotes and pay proper respect to an individual when they have both good and bad in their past.  But I feel like I may have judged him unfairly and it really sounds like he had turned his life around after that incident.  We all make mistakes (some much greater than others) and we all deserve second chances in life.  Sounds like he made the most of his.  

[amac]

45 minutes ago, titanrick said:

I have an interesting perspective that others may find value in.  I couldn't stand Kobe as a player because he was so good and so cocky.  When the rape allegations came out, my dislike turned to hate.  The way he and his legal team smeared that girl in public was reprehensible.  His "you guys know me" press conference reeked of privilege and arrogance.  Honestly, I never paid much attention after that.  Rooted against him every chance I had.  So when I read through this thread, my skin crawled when people would seamlessly shift from "what an incredible basketball player" to "what an incredible human being".  But this certainly wasn't the time to bring up the negative aspects, so I kept my online mouth shut. 

However, I did start researching the whole event a little more.  If I'm being honest, it was probably from a motivation to confirm that he wasn't this great human being at all.  But that's not really what I found.  Not entirely.  I'm still not excusing anything he did - her side of the story is simply awful.  But I hadn't realized he read a statement in court apologizing to the victim.  His statement seemed heart-felt and that was powerful to me.  It seems to frame the rest of his life more fully - that he became a better person after that incident.  I think some people (not pointing any fingers) want to stick their head in the sand and just say "if the charges were dropped, he did nothing wrong."  I can't do that.  As much as I look at the loss of his daughter as a tragedy because I have a daughter about that age, I also look at the rape accusation from the same lens - I have a daughter about that age.

It's a complicated thing to try to sum up a life in a couple quotes and pay proper respect to an individual when they have both good and bad in their past.  But I feel like I may have judged him unfairly and it really sounds like he had turned his life around after that incident.  We all make mistakes (some much greater than others) and we all deserve second chances in life.  Sounds like he made the most of his.  

I usually feel this way about celeb deaths. Most of us will never know them on a personal level, so I can’t say whether he was a great person or not.

I was never a Kobe fan and always thought his stans were annoying. But he meant so much to a lot of people and him going down with his kid is heartbreaking. There was a certain invincibility quality to him, surreal that he is actually gone. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

39 minutes ago, titanrick said:

I have an interesting perspective that others may find value in.  I couldn't stand Kobe as a player because he was so good and so cocky.  When the rape allegations came out, my dislike turned to hate.  The way he and his legal team smeared that girl in public was reprehensible.  His "you guys know me" press conference reeked of privilege and arrogance.  Honestly, I never paid much attention after that.  Rooted against him every chance I had.  So when I read through this thread, my skin crawled when people would seamlessly shift from "what an incredible basketball player" to "what an incredible human being".  But this certainly wasn't the time to bring up the negative aspects, so I kept my online mouth shut. 

However, I did start researching the whole event a little more.  If I'm being honest, it was probably from a motivation to confirm that he wasn't this great human being at all.  But that's not really what I found.  Not entirely.  I'm still not excusing anything he did - her side of the story is simply awful.  But I hadn't realized he read a statement in court apologizing to the victim.  His statement seemed heart-felt and that was powerful to me.  It seems to frame the rest of his life more fully - that he became a better person after that incident.  I think some people (not pointing any fingers) want to stick their head in the sand and just say "if the charges were dropped, he did nothing wrong."  I can't do that.  As much as I look at the loss of his daughter as a tragedy because I have a daughter about that age, I also look at the rape accusation from the same lens - I have a daughter about that age.

It's a complicated thing to try to sum up a life in a couple quotes and pay proper respect to an individual when they have both good and bad in their past.  But I feel like I may have judged him unfairly and it really sounds like he had turned his life around after that incident.  We all make mistakes (some much greater than others) and we all deserve second chances in life.  Sounds like he made the most of his.  

You aren't alone. I mentioned in the other thread in the general forum I have mixed feelings regarding his legacy too. The same thing when Michael Jackson passed, but I still listen to his music even today despite the controversy that has followed him. At the same time I don't think I'll ever watch anything with Bill Cosby in it again, so it really is a personal choice. Kobe for many people was their hero and served as an inspiration for greatness. We'll never know what happened in Colorado in 2003, and if that story came out today with someone of his stature, I don't think they would survive in this climate. That being said, even though now isn't the time to be a goomba and dance on his grave spitting venom in the outbreak of this nightmarish tragedy, I do think it's fair for anyone to have lingering questions. I saw a comment mentioned here about how he was one of the 10 best humans to walk the Earth, which was just disturbing to read personally, however people are having high emotions right now regarding someone they saw larger than life perish. Just the way human nature and society works. 

A reporter from the Washington Post was just suspended for bringing up an article about the Kobe rape case essentially moments after he was killed with a tweet. While I don't think she should have done that literally moments after the incident happened and lives were lost, in my opinion she did have a good point when she was defending her actions by saying "Any public figure is worth remembering in their totality, even if that public figure beloved and that totality upsetting". 

 

[MightyMouse07]

I think Titanrick put it perfectly. I always held that over him as well but he seemed to genuinely attempt to make a concerted effort to be a better person from that moment and I think he would have been huge for the women's game. It's such a shame that we won't get to see that now. 

[sunnygsm]

Bron spoke to him on sunday morning, none of this feels real. 

[mission27]

3 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

You aren't alone. I mentioned in the other thread in the general forum I have mixed feelings regarding his legacy too. The same thing when Michael Jackson passed, but I still listen to his music even today despite the controversy that has followed him. At the same time I don't think I'll ever watch anything with Bill Cosby in it again, so it really is a personal choice. Kobe for many people was their hero and served as an inspiration for greatness. We'll never know what happened in Colorado in 2003, and if that story came out today with someone of his stature, I don't think they would survive in this climate. That being said, even though now isn't the time to be a goomba and dance on his grave spitting venom in the outbreak of this nightmarish tragedy, I do think it's fair for anyone to have lingering questions. I saw a comment mentioned here about how he was one of the 10 best humans to walk the Earth, which was just disturbing to read personally, however people are having high emotions right now regarding someone they saw larger than life perish. Just the way human nature and society works. 

A reporter from the Washington Post was just suspended for bringing up an article about the Kobe rape case essentially moments after he was killed with a tweet. While I don't think she should have done that literally moments after the incident happened and lives were lost, in my opinion she did have a good point when she was defending her actions by saying "Any public figure is worth remembering in their totality, even if that public figure beloved and that totality upsetting". 

 

I’ve actually been pretty encouraged over the past few years and particularly the past couple of days how people have been able to view Kobe holistically rather than everyone becoming polarized around one allegation from 17 years ago and taking sides.  Its likely because it was litigated in the court of public opinion very heavily at a different time and is settled news to a lot of people, and maybe we are burying our heads in the sand because talking about it is too painful, but no matter what, its better than the alternative tbh and I hope it continues to be the case over the coming days. 

Regardless of where the truth lies Kobe clearly did a lot to hurt a lot of people, including his family.  But he also clearly grew so much as a person over the last 17 years.  He was an inspiring figure and by all accounts a great husband and dad in his post playing years.  We didn’t lose 25 year old Kobe yesterday, we lost 41 year old Kobe, who was a great guy and family man and a hero to so many people and had so much ahead of him.  

He was lucky to have the chance to get some redemption and atone for his mistakes and make an incredibly positive impact in the world.  Obviously not everyone gets that chance but I think that’s a big part of the Kobe Bryant story.  Hopefully people can take away from this that sometimes giving someone a second chance and recognizing we are all human and make mistakes and practicing what we preach around forgiveness... even for people who don’t seem like they deserve it at the time... is the right thing to do.

[pwny]

4 hours ago, titanrick said:

I have an interesting perspective that others may find value in.  I couldn't stand Kobe as a player because he was so good and so cocky.  When the rape allegations came out, my dislike turned to hate.  The way he and his legal team smeared that girl in public was reprehensible.  His "you guys know me" press conference reeked of privilege and arrogance.  Honestly, I never paid much attention after that.  Rooted against him every chance I had.  So when I read through this thread, my skin crawled when people would seamlessly shift from "what an incredible basketball player" to "what an incredible human being".  But this certainly wasn't the time to bring up the negative aspects, so I kept my online mouth shut. 

However, I did start researching the whole event a little more.  If I'm being honest, it was probably from a motivation to confirm that he wasn't this great human being at all.  But that's not really what I found.  Not entirely.  I'm still not excusing anything he did - her side of the story is simply awful.  But I hadn't realized he read a statement in court apologizing to the victim.  His statement seemed heart-felt and that was powerful to me.  It seems to frame the rest of his life more fully - that he became a better person after that incident.  I think some people (not pointing any fingers) want to stick their head in the sand and just say "if the charges were dropped, he did nothing wrong."  I can't do that.  As much as I look at the loss of his daughter as a tragedy because I have a daughter about that age, I also look at the rape accusation from the same lens - I have a daughter about that age.

It's a complicated thing to try to sum up a life in a couple quotes and pay proper respect to an individual when they have both good and bad in their past.  But I feel like I may have judged him unfairly and it really sounds like he had turned his life around after that incident.  We all make mistakes (some much greater than others) and we all deserve second chances in life.  Sounds like he made the most of his.  

This is also something I’ve been struggling with too. I came a bit from the other end though.

 

Growing up, like I said earlier, I wasn’t the biggest fan of watching the sport, but have always identified with him. I played a ton of basketball and attempted to model my game after what I saw from Kobe. I was an ignorant kid when the Colorado stuff happened, and the only side I ever heard with any depth was from the side of Lakers fans online. I heard all the inconsistencies and his side of the story only. So being a stupid kid, that’s what shaped my entire understanding of the situation. Then for the next decade, the only time I ever heard the alternative was from stupid fans of opposing teams trying to use it as a trump card to arguments; “yeah he beat us, but he’s a rapist!” It was more of a *gotcha* than any real attempt at anything resembling morality.

As I’ve grown up and understood more about those types of situations, it’s always been a situation I never confronted internally. How do you even process that the closest thing to a hero you have in a certain field that you’re interested in may have been a complete piece of trash? It was always something I could just process later. I don’t need to confront how I feel about what happened in Colorado, because it’s not that important at the moment. But now he’s gone, and all that’s left is facing his legacy. And this all is probably why I can’t really bring myself to have coherent thoughts about what’s happened. I’m conflicted. There’s the kid in me that grew up ignorant to the situation and liked Kobe as much as I could. There’s the part of me that wonders did he actively do something so heinous. And then there’s the third part of me that wonders if his last 17 years of growth as a person and his efforts to make a difference is *enough* if he did do it. I don’t believe people that do monstrous things are incapable of being better people, but if Kobe did do what was accused, are those 17 years of active change enough to justify celebrating his legacy? I really don’t know. It’s a complex situation with no perfect answer.

And that’s probably why this is so hard for me.

Edited January 28, 2020 by pwny

[11sanchez11]

3 hours ago, titanrick said:

But I hadn't realized he read a statement in court apologizing to the victim.  His statement seemed heart-felt and that was powerful to me. 

I came in here because I was just reading it and it is kinda a weird thing to say for a person in his situation. He apologized and basically said that it was nonconsensual from her POV, but he didn't know it at the time. Some people could take that as an admission of guilt or him being unusually honest.  

I haven't posted in here yet even tho Kobe is possibly my favorite athlete ever. Partly cause of this situation. 

Doesn't seem right to be dismissive of it because it is part of his legacy and how it could potentially be harmful to actual victims and future victims for it be an accepted response to people in that situation. 

Also doesn't seem fair to label someone that if you don't know it they did anything wrong. I usually default to believing the athlete because I rather believe someone lied to get some money than did what the what the athlete was accused of. idk if that is the right way to go about it

But I do think it is a fair topic to bring up. 

[redsoxsuck05]

22 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

I came in here because I was just reading it and it is kinda a weird thing to say for a person in his situation. He apologized and basically said that it was nonconsensual from her POV, but he didn't know it at the time. Some people could take that as an admission of guilt or him being unusually honest.  

I haven't posted in here yet even tho Kobe is possibly my favorite athlete ever. Partly cause of this situation. 

Doesn't seem right to be dismissive of it because it is part of his legacy and how it could potentially be harmful to actual victims and future victims for it be an accepted response to people in that situation. 

Also doesn't seem fair to label someone that if you don't know it they did anything wrong. I usually default to believing the athlete because I rather believe someone lied to get some money than did what the what the athlete was accused of. idk if that is the right way to go about it

But I do think it is a fair topic to bring up. 

I think it’s fair for people to bring up the lack of closure with the rape allegations, because Kobe didn’t face any real-life consequences. He only had a chance to “grow” because he’s a powerful athlete and sports fans are going to side with their idol over some anonymous ****, whore, gold-digger nobody (all this crap still being dredged up in 2020). At the very least, he matured as an adult. He’s not a Cosby-esque predator who goes out of his way to harm women.

The way his counsel purposely leaked her name to tabloids and basically tormented her into dropping the charges is a permanent black mark. I wonder how she feels when powerful figures associated with social justice are going out of their way to praise how he treats women. I’m ok with the praise and the moments of silence, but that stuff skeeves me the **** out.

Edited January 28, 2020 by redsoxsuck05

[mission27]

43 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

I came in here because I was just reading it and it is kinda a weird thing to say for a person in his situation. He apologized and basically said that it was nonconsensual from her POV, but he didn't know it at the time. Some people could take that as an admission of guilt or him being unusually honest.  

Tbh I think it can be both.  Just because he didn’t know it at the time doesn’t mean he wasn’t an *** or make it ok, but it does matter, and his actions since that time matter 

I think he was saying... I’ve spent my whole life being Kobe and doing whatever I wanted and assuming other people will let me because I’m Kobe, and it’s always worked, and I never realized sometimes that can really hurt people and people can’t stand up to me because I’m who I am, and I’ve hurt this person and my wife and family.  I’m guilty and I was wrong and I realize that now and will become a better person 

And it doesn’t excuse it or take away from what the other person experienced, and he was probably lucky to avoid significant consequences, but you also have to understand it at a certain level and understand people especially in his situation can be immature at 24-25 and do ****ed up stuff which doesn’t always mean you are a bad person 

And I think admitting it and becoming a better person and living an exemplary personal life for the rest of your life, and doing a lot of good in the world, doesn’t mean you weren’t wrong or didn’t do a bad thing but hopefully you aren’t defined by one bad thing 

I personally think there is a big difference between someone who is a disrespectful *** as a young person and does a really bad thing that hurts someone but uses that as a wake up call to become a great person... which shows they really care about doing the right thing... and some people we hear about in the news who are serial abusers, clearly know they are repeatedly hurting people against their will, and use their power to get away with it for decades 

Again he was obviously lucky to get a second chance and be able to redeem himself, but you can still recognize the redemption and that he was a good person, even if he did something wrong when he was young and stupid 

[redsoxsuck05]

7 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Tbh I think it can be both.  Just because he didn’t know it at the time doesn’t mean he wasn’t an *** or make it ok, but it does matter, and his actions since that time matter 

I think he was saying... I’ve spent my whole life being Kobe and doing whatever I wanted and assuming other people will let me because I’m Kobe, and it’s always worked, and I never realized sometimes that can really hurt people and people can’t stand up to me because I’m who I am, and I’ve hurt this person and my wife and family.  I’m guilty and I was wrong and I realize that now and will become a better person 

And it doesn’t excuse it or take away from what the other person experienced, and he was probably lucky to avoid significant consequences, but you also have to understand it at a certain level and understand people especially in his situation can be immature at 24-25 and do ****ed up stuff which doesn’t always mean you are a bad person 

And I think admitting it and becoming a better person and living an exemplary personal life for the rest of your life, and doing a lot of good in the world, doesn’t mean you weren’t wrong or didn’t do a bad thing but hopefully you aren’t defined by one bad thing 

I personally think there is a big difference between someone who is a disrespectful *** as a young person and does a really bad thing that hurts someone but uses that as a wake up call to become a great person... which shows they really care about doing the right thing... and some people we hear about in the news who are serial abusers, clearly know they are repeatedly hurting people against their will, and use their power to get away with it for decades 

Again he was obviously lucky to get a second chance and be able to redeem himself, but you can still recognize the redemption and that he was a good person, even if he did something wrong when he was young and stupid 

Here's the thing that bugs me, mission. Because it's Kobe and we're sports fans, we're only ever concerned about how Kobe comes back from this "unfortunate situation" and redeems himself. Meanwhile the young lady has an unflattering photo of hers on a tabloid accompanied with her name, and who knows how many death threats. She got a settlement that she was pressured into and a double-speak apology. Months later and she's just a footnote, all while the media eats out of Kobe's carefully-crafted Black Mamba PR project.

Kobe became a better man (or got better at hiding indiscretions), but you cannot dispose of someone in this manner and get redemption. How could he be redeemed when he never had to reckon with his actions or face any real consequences?

Having daughters and being a good father will never cancel out what happened in 2003. If anything, it's more revealing how one treats women when they aren't your flesh and blood.

 

 

[amac]

3 minutes ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

Here's the thing that bugs me, mission. Because it's Kobe and we're sports fans, we're only ever concerned about how Kobe comes back from this "unfortunate situation" and redeems himself.

This always bothers me. A star athlete basically has to kill someone before people finally acknowledge they’re a bad person. Some jock sniffers will always rush to their defense no matter what and point to charity/community work that most of them do for PR.  Not that I’m saying Kobe is guilty of course, but in general star athletes get way more leeway in those situations

[mission27]

Just now, redsoxsuck05 said:

Here's the thing that bugs me, mission. Because it's Kobe and we're sports fans, we're only ever concerned about how Kobe comes back from this "unfortunate situation" and redeems himself. Meanwhile the young lady has an unflattering photo of hers on a tabloid accompanied with her name, and who knows how many death threats. She got a settlement that she was pressured into and a double-speak apology. Months later and she's just a footnote, all while the media eats out of Kobe's carefully-crafted Black Mamba PR project.

Kobe became a better man (or got better at hiding indiscretions), but you cannot dispose of someone in this manner and get redemption. How could he be redeemed when he never had to reckon with his actions or face any real consequences?

Having daughters and being a good father will never cancel out what happened in 2003. If anything, it's more revealing how one treats women when they aren't your flesh and blood.

 

 

Idk, I think its possible to feel for the woman involved here and believe she was mistreated by Kobe and his lawyers and the tabloids and also at the same time be open to Kobe becoming a better person and making amends by making a positive difference in the world.  No Kobe living a good life cant fix what happened, but hating Kobe or destroying Kobe’s life wouldn’t do anything to make it better either. 

Look... personally I believe retributive justice is usually wrong headed and basically the polar opposite of the value systems most of us claim to subscribe to that preach forgiveness.  I see an unfortunate trend in society over most of my lifetime where people cant separate increasing empathy and support for victims from blindly following retributive justice and am just personally grateful that people aren’t applying that standard in the case of Kobe, who is one of the better examples of what happens when you give people a second chance.  

Thats personally how I feel about these type of situations and think Kobe is a great example of why, but realize there are others out there who are believers in “an eye for an eye”... that’s just not my style, maybe because I’m a less perfect person than some and recognize I’ve made plenty of mistakes in my life and probably not always treated people 100% the way I should, we are all human, even Kobe who was a super hero was human, with flaws but also the ability to learn from his mistakes, I think we could all learn from that 

[redsoxsuck05]

1 minute ago, amac said:

This always bothers me. A star athlete basically has to kill someone before people finally acknowledge they’re a bad person. Some jock sniffers will always rush to their defense no matter what and point to charity/community work that most of them do for PR.  Not that I’m saying Kobe is guilty of course, but in general star athletes get way more leeway in those situations

I recognize how much easier it is cognitively to side with the beloved celebrity. We're talking about going out on a limb for an anonymous* accuser and totally re-orienting the way that we think of someone we grew up idolizing. That's why when the dust settles, I think Colorado has to be a part of Kobe's story that everyone remembers. Isn't it enough that he even got a mulligan that most wouldn't get?