Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Xenos]

6 hours ago, theJ said:

I really dislike when people dismiss economics like it doesn't matter. 

Economics are how we feed 7 billion people on this planet. It can't just be dismissed out of hand for safety. We take risks every day to do the things we do. Safety is not #1. That's a lie, and will always be a lie. 

Anyway, sorry. You're probably not saying that exactly. I just needed to vent. 

Safety is #1. At least compared to the economy. No one is going to a restaurant if an outbreak happens. Long term if you put safety first, you will reap the economic benefits. Otherwise you are being unethical and deserve to be shut down.

Also the economy is meant to serve the people. Not the other way around.

[Ozzy]

In what world is the USA doing a great job handled this pandemic?  Do people actually believe that?  #1 in cases by a wide margin and #1 if Deaths by a wide margin, #1 in testing sure but honestly so what.  Yeah Russia has a lot of tests done, 2nd to the USA but with 500,000+ cases, they have only 8000 deaths.  

 

 

                       Total Cases          Total Deaths

1	USA	2,330,578		121,980
2	Brazil	1,070,139		50,058
3	Russia	576,952		8,002
4	India	411,727		13,277
5	UK	303,110		42,589
6	Spain	293,018		28,322
7	Peru	251,338		7,861
8	Italy	238,275		34,610
9	Chile	236,748		4,295
10	Iran	202,584		9,507

 

 

Do people honestly believe the USA have done some great job in any of this?  China has 1.4 billion people and only 4600+ deaths, sure they could be lying but it did start there obviously.  India 1.3 billion people and only 13,000+ deaths etc.

[theJ]

46 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Safety is #1. At least compared to the economy. No one is going to a restaurant if an outbreak happens. Long term if you put safety first, you will reap the economic benefits. Otherwise you are being unethical and deserve to be shut down.

Also the economy is meant to serve the people. Not the other way around.

Safety is not #1. It never has been. Because there's a cost to it, and a cost not everyone is willing to pay. 

Let's say there was a car out there that for sure protected you 100% in any type of car accident. It also costs $10million. Are you buying one tomorrow? No, you're not. 

Safety is not #1. 

The reality is that economics and safety are both important, and that depending on the situation you may rank one over the other. 

Covid is bad, yes. So is mass unemployment. One doesn't completely negate the other. 

[Shady Slim]

1 minute ago, theJ said:

Safety is not #1. It never has been. Because there's a cost to it, and a cost everyone is willing to pay. 

Let's say there was a car out there that for sure protected you 100% in any type of car accident. It also costs $10million. Are you buying one tomorrow? No, you're not. 

Safety is not #1. 

The reality is that economics and safety are both important, and that depending on the situation you may rank one over the other. 

Covid is bad, yes. So is mass unemployment. One doesn't completely negate the other. 

market failure when that car costs that much and a car that does that should be government subsidised such that it should be available to everyone imho

more on the topic, victoria here has had to reimpose some restrictions because large family gatherings (and not the protests here) have seen a big spike in the case numbers and case clusters which is a worry.

[theJ]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

Do people honestly believe the USA have done some great job in any of this?  China has 1.4 billion people and only 4600+ deaths, sure they could be lying but it did start there obviously.  India 1.3 billion people and only 13,000+ deaths etc.

China is definitely lying. The US has the poor benefit of a country that travels quite a bit, and has quite a few people travel to it. Makes it really easy to spread. 

Countries like India are just starting to see the explosion in cases. They have been delayed because they're more secluded from world travel than the US. Give it a month and it could be worse there than it ever was in the US. 

The US is also massive in terms of population. So you can't compare their raw numbers to Italy or Greece or whatever. 

[theJ]

Just now, Shady Slim said:

market failure when that car costs that much and a car that does that should be government subsidised such that it should be available to everyone imho

Lol. That point went over your head. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, theJ said:

China is definitely lying. The US has the poor benefit of a country that travels quite a bit, and has quite a few people travel to it. Makes it really easy to spread. 

Countries like India are just starting to see the explosion in cases. They have been delayed because they're more secluded from world travel than the US. Give it a month and it could be worse there than it ever was in the US. 

The US is also massive in terms of population. So you can't compare their raw numbers to Italy or Greece or whatever. 

As of now, you can stick us in the "definitely lying" category too. There was a deliberate effort to slow testing solely to deflate case totals.

[Shady Slim]

Just now, theJ said:

Lol. That point went over your head. 

nah i get the point you're making, that there's always a balance between the economics of the most safe decision and sometimes it can be economically nonviable to take every precaution

but figured there was a hole to poke in the analogy so went on ahead  

[theJ]

1 minute ago, Shady Slim said:

nah i get the point you're making, that there's always a balance between the economics of the most safe decision and sometimes it can be economically nonviable to take every precaution

but figured there was a hole to poke in the analogy so went on ahead  

[theJ]

2 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

I really dislike it when people put economics above health. There’s a real tendency towards exaggeration in this thread and has been for some time.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard economics isn’t important. I have heard that without mitigation etc, places might have to shut down, again, which would be far more devastating to the economy.

Based on my personal observations, the Covid 19:fight in the U.S. has been far more about protecting capital than protecting people. The wealthy are making out like bandits with untraceable handouts etc. It’s the same old crisis management top down bailouts which don’t really help economically and simply further increase wealth gaps. It’s not unlike the bank bailouts. They gave the banks money but they still repossessed homes. It would’ve been much more efficient and economically sensible to bailout the little guys, the homeowners who would’ve made their mortgage payments. The banks would’ve been paid, homeowners kept in homes etc. Instead the taxpayers had to bailout incompetency and have their homes repossessed.

The U.S. has all the economic muscle needed to weather this storm. Unfortunately the system is broken and wealth distribution is really messed up. 

 

 

 

Definitely agree with some of those points. There are better ways to deal with some of this. 

I guess see my post above to understand where I'm at with all this. We should be considering both economics and safety in all this. They're both important. 

[Shady Slim]

2 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

I really dislike it when people put economics above health. There’s a real tendency towards exaggeration in this thread and has been for some time.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard economics isn’t important. I have heard that without mitigation etc, places might have to shut down, again, which would be far more devastating to the economy.

Based on my personal observations, the Covid 19:fight in the U.S. has been far more about protecting capital than protecting people. The wealthy are making out like bandits with untraceable handouts etc. It’s the same old crisis management top down bailouts which don’t really help economically and simply further increase wealth gaps. It’s not unlike the bank bailouts. They gave the banks money but they still repossessed homes. It would’ve been much more efficient and economically sensible to bailout the little guys, the homeowners who would’ve made their mortgage payments. The banks would’ve been paid, homeowners kept in homes etc. Instead the taxpayers had to bailout incompetency and have their homes repossessed.

The U.S. has all the economic muscle needed to weather this storm. Unfortunately the system is broken and wealth distribution is really messed up. 

 

 

 

big thanks to @theJ for quoting this post so i could see it, yeah these are all excellent points and entirely correct.

marginal propensity to consume is a simple economic concept (simple when i explain it) that talks about, if you give someone an extra dollar, how much of that dollar will they spend. richer people, you give them an extra dollar, they have a low MPC, because they are likely savers and not spenders. poorer people who are struggling with bills or expenses, or are just getting by and would treat themselves if they had a touch more money, have a much higher MPC, as they are likely to spend an extra dollar they get; so handouts to the wealthy are always banked as a general rule, whereas if you're poor you're definitely going to spend stimulus money, if not on a bill, then on taking your family out to a nice dinner for the first time in a long time, or getting that shirt you want but haven't been able to afford yet. to kickstart the economy it makes economic sense to focus stimulus money on people of lower SES. growing up as one of those people myself, and in a poorer area, it's entirely the way things work both on a theoretical and practical level.

[Ozzy]

18 minutes ago, theJ said:

China is definitely lying. The US has the poor benefit of a country that travels quite a bit, and has quite a few people travel to it. Makes it really easy to spread. 

Countries like India are just starting to see the explosion in cases. They have been delayed because they're more secluded from world travel than the US. Give it a month and it could be worse there than it ever was in the US. 

The US is also massive in terms of population. So you can't compare their raw numbers to Italy or Greece or whatever. 

Very true, the US does have an insane amount of travel in and out but does not help when the President for months was saying it was either fake, not real or would just go away and people should not be worried and most just went about their day.  But their are other large countries that do not have near the issues the USA is seeming to have because they actually took this seriously at the start.

 

 

                                 Cases                    Total Deaths                                       Population

1	China	83,352		4,634									1,439,323,776
2	India	411,727		13,277									1,379,604,102
3	USA	2,330,578		121,980									330,949,344
4	Indonesia	45,029		2,429									273,437,170
5	Pakistan	171,666		3,382									220,744,151
6	Brazil	1,070,139		50,058									212,516,958
7	Nigeria	19,808		506									205,948,218
8	Bangladesh	108,775		1,425									164,640,865
9	Russia	576,952		8,002									145,932,915
10	Mexico	175,202		20,781									128,892,314

 

 

It just seems odd the President is saying currently the USA and his administration has done such a wonderful job with the pandemic.  I am no public health Infectious Disease expert or something, but couldn't one say America has done worse with this than any country on the planet in how they have handled this based on the death total?   Will see what happens with the election and if we can get over barely half the country to actually vote.  

 

And damn, Russia that is a small amount of people for such a massive chunk of land, Japan is only 20 or so million off that Russia population mark and is what not even 1% of the land size, possibly even less than that. 

 

 

 

[BobbyPhil1781]

Let's not get this thread locked. Please keep the politics out of it

Edited June 21, 2020 by JTagg7754

[Xenos]

55 minutes ago, theJ said:

Safety is not #1. It never has been. Because there's a cost to it, and a cost not everyone is willing to pay. 

Let's say there was a car out there that for sure protected you 100% in any type of car accident. It also costs $10million. Are you buying one tomorrow? No, you're not. 

Safety is not #1. 

The reality is that economics and safety are both important, and that depending on the situation you may rank one over the other. 

Covid is bad, yes. So is mass unemployment. One doesn't completely negate the other. 

Sorry but you never rank economics over safety. Your car scenario would also never exist in the real world. Nor is it applicable to what is happening right now. No business can guarantee 100% but the goal is to be close to that number as possible. It’s why things like Six Sigma exist. When you prioritize profit over safety, it’s called cutting corners. Mass unemployment will be even greater because of this. And the companies that are not willing to deal with the short term costs will suffer the long term ramifications. Unless they get bailed out by the government again of course.

Anyways, this was originally about restaurants. So safety is definitely the main goal there if they want to continue existing. Measured risks in this scenario would be finding new ways to stay economically sound without compromising safety.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Xenos

[Xenos]

23 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

I don't know any true epidemologists, but through my church and work, I know a good number of doctors and while they are supportive of masks short term to get us back to normal, they believe it will trash our immune system sooner rather than later.  A lot of our immune system to viruses and colds relates to us getting exposed to it in some way or another.  This is ultimately my concern with masks, as well as moisture and humidity in the summer months making a mask not last nearly as long. 

I just did a brief Google search and looked at the first page and didn't see much on this, so I would be interested to see if anyone can find any points of discussion one way or another. 

I get your doctor friends’ concern. But I still think in the grand scheme of things, I would still rather not expose my immune system to COVID 19 even at the risk of weakening it against normal colds and viruses.