Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[JonStark]

1 hour ago, WizeGuy said:

There are extremists on both sides. Truth is- most of us want society to open up, but also there needs to be measures put in place to severely reduce the spread. My county has done well with this thus far (bars are open, indoor dining, zoos, museums, etc...and we've controlled the spread). But you're starting to see that if we do neglect measures to contain the spread, then we're just going to end up reverting back phases anyways (AZ, FL, TX, CA). This will ultimately hurt our local economy while overwhelming hospitals which then leads to stopping elective cases and putting a HUGE financial burden on those hospitals. The proof is in the pudding.    

We need to find the perfect middle ground, and I think some states are getting close. Of course, this virus is insanely contagious, so we'll never be completely out of the woods, but if we keep our guard up then we should be ready for counter attacks. 

Nailed it. The problem is that there are always going to be people who feel they are above finding a middle ground, thus ruining it for everyone. 

[naptownskinsfan]

57 minutes ago, theJ said:

Yeah and the news he was reading likely made arguments that were compelling to him that it was a hoax.  That's how targeted ads work.  The whole thing is just an echo chamber.  It's why everyone gets so entrenched in their opinions now-a-days and can't see what the other side sees.

I wouldn't call that "news" if that does indeed end up being the case.  Somewhere along the line, we've jumped the shark from news to sensationalism, and it's filled with opinions and not facts. The exact point is when they figured out ad clicks equal money.  

[naptownskinsfan]

55 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Here's the specific part of your post that I object to:

 

People aren't "given information". They seek it out. He has the same internet connection you or I do with all of the same access to official information, but he chose to ignore all of that an pretend that this was a vast conspiracy to (presumably) destroy the economy to impact an election.

You have absolved him of any responsibility for being an informed citizen by saying he "was given information", which is completely at odds with how the US handles every single other adult responsibility. 

Spot on.  We are consumers when it comes to this.  It's like having restaurants have to post their calorie count for menu items.  Before, you could be ignorant about it and not know.  Now you know that Cheesecake Factory has some insanely unhealthy things and you could consume your whole days worth of calories (and then some) by eating there once.  Before it was tough to figure that out, but you could still find it.  Now it's easy and right in front of you (internet connection, fact checking, etc) 

If someone can't figure out for themselves that some sources are left of center, and some sources are right of center............they didn't seek out the correct information.  They went for what they wanted to hear, to allow them to do what they want.  As someone who leans a certain way, it is important for me to read both sides with opinion pieces, as well as know which sources have the best news (facts) reporting for when I do need strictly information.  

[naptownskinsfan]

23 minutes ago, theJ said:

It's fine, you're allowed to vent a little.  This is a safe space, ha.

I'm coming at the subject from a macro level.  Please don't mistake that for justifying actions on an individual level.  On an individual level, i'm with you.  A person should arm themselves with information, on all levels.  But we know that most people aren't going to do that.  People in general, at a macro level, run with the first thing they see, for a variety of reasons.  They don't dig and dig and dig, and check sources.

IMO, if enough people would recognize the danger of media influence, we might actually be able to change that.  And that would have a far greater impact than trying to influence people on a micro level.

Start with Why by Simon Sinek explains this well, and if people don't want to read, the Ted Talk is actually great as well.  

We are still have a personal responsibility to inform ourselves though.  And a lot of people don't want to do that because they want to live in their own little "me" bubble.

[incognito_man]

33 minutes ago, theJ said:

Do we? 

When you open Facebook, are you looking for specific information, or are you blasted in the face with it?

When you search for something on Google, does Google give you the most accurate search result, or the most accurate search result for you?

targeted ads use prior sought out information to generate content

You're right that the immediacy of content may be cherry-picked. You're right that this practice perpetuates and roots current positions. But that seed was planted at some point. The ads I see are different than the ads he saw because of the information we've both been seeking for years.

[MacReady]

11 hours ago, Xenos said:

But he doesn’t even have the excuse of being a teenager. He’s a full blown adult at 30. Not a kid fresh out of high school or even college to have that level of naivety. Maybe don’t so easily believe in conspiracy theories or misinformation like a teenager or child would. And I say that as someone who is actually sad that this had to happen. The sad reality is that certain people will not accept this until it enters their bubble and becomes reality. I can tell you I enter this thread to vent sometimes because I’m pissed off that we seem to be moving backwards compared to a lot of the rest of the world. And it’s because of sad and unlucky fools like this.

I get the frustration.  I do.  I was just talking to my boss this morning about it and this whole thing has got me more on edge, more depressed and more lethargic than anything.  What gets me the most though is the hatred.  This is the type of thing that should unite people.  For example, my cousin is one of the anti-maskers.  She's gotten it in her head that it's political.  I get her viewpoint.  I don't agree with it, but I get it and I understand how she could be led to believe that.  I've always considered myself moderate politically.  I lean this way for a lot, I lean that way for a lot.  I typically leaned a lot more her way than the other way before, so I understood her viewpoint, but then throw in a pandemic and...  For a while I resented her.  Called her an idiot, a moron, I specifically disinvited her from coming to my house.  Then I realized I was hating my cousin for not wearing a mask when it's clear her opinion was polluted by politics.  So instead of hating her, I did something I very rarely do enough of these days... I told her, "For as much **** as I give you, I really do care about you.  I know masks are stupid, but if there's even a 2% chance it could protect you and your family, I think you should do it."  Guess what?  She wears a mask now. 

This isn't going to be solved or fixed through animosity and hate, but through empathy, discussion, communication, humility... There is WAY too much hate from EVERY side of this. 

1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

Saying that people are taking pleasure in death is very much projecting. I don’t know how you could read over 600 pages of posts anonymously begging people to wear masks and stay home so that people stop dying, and believe that they secretly enjoy people dying. You are basically accusing folks of being sociopaths.

I wish that guy didn’t die. I wish he didn’t go to the party, and I wish the party didn’t happen. He did, and it did. He’s not a child, he had access to the same information everyone else did and chose not to take it seriously. Unfortunately the stakes are much higher than he anticipated.

I’m not sympathetic because he knowingly and willingly opted to ignore hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of instances of severe illness. I am empathetic about the outcome and do feel remorse/pain that his bad choices forced him to die, probably alone, full of regret.

stop projecting. Most people in this thread are dealing with/processing things in their own way and are lucky to have a community where they feel comfortable doing so.

It's not projecting.  It's a global event being used to push people against people.  Never let a good disaster go to waste is very much at play here. 

Like I said, I had been avoiding this thread.  I came in right when people were posting how unsympathetic they were.  It was also in response to the person who posted it, who is much worse than anyone else and is taking pleasure in it.  I'm ranting more about what I've seen in my own little bubble.  As the anecdote before hints at, my extended family has been torn apart about all of this.  So and so in Colorado now hates so and so in Nebraska who hates so and so in North Carolina...

They're doing the same thing.  It's not just the virus, it's the world.  Blowing each other up every time one side is proven right.  Taking pleasure in literal murders that prove their point.  Taking pleasure in deaths that prove their point.

Death is being turned into a weapon in the world today.  It's like a great big scoreboard of lives and it's disconcerting at best. 

Granted, I maybe came into this thread at the wrong time, but it was there. 

[theJ]

9 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

targeted ads use prior sought out information to generate content

You're right that the immediacy of content may be cherry-picked. You're right that this practice perpetuates and roots current positions. But that seed was planted at some point. The ads I see are different than the ads he saw because of the information we've both been seeking for years.

Yes, couldn't have said it better.

[incognito_man]

2 minutes ago, theJ said:

12 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

targeted ads use prior sought out information to generate content

You're right that the immediacy of content (may be) IS cherry-picked. You're right that this practice perpetuates and roots current positions. But that seed was planted at some point. The ads I see are different than the ads he saw because of the information we've both been seeking for years.

Yes, couldn't have said it better.

I could have. I would replace "may be" with "is" ha

[theJ]

14 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

This isn't going to be solved or fixed through animosity and hate, but through empathy, discussion, communication, humility... There is WAY too much hate from EVERY side of this. 

Second time in two days i've used this gif, ha.

Loved your post, btw.  The whole thing.

[MookieMonstah]

Unfortunately, I've tried too get to many anti-maskers to see the "light" only to be told to shut off CNN and bring my liberal agenda elsewhere and blah blah blah. I'm all set on it. You want to be purposefully obtuse and put others at risk? Cool, you get zero respect or sympathy from me.

Edited July 14, 2020 by MookieMonstah

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, theJ said:

Yes and no.  But Google and Facebook and other sources of information do not give two people the same information.  Grab a friend and do an internet search on google using the same keywords.  You will get different results.  And most people don't go past the first page, they click on the first thing.  

The information you are given is targeted to you based on the information those sites have on you.  

Personally i think that's a disgusting perversion of privacy, but others will claim it gives you more accurate searches. 

 

I'll admit i'm guessing a little on the guys frame of mind.  I wasn't there.  But knowing how internet searches and targeted news work, i don't think my assumption is far off the mark.  The guy was likely getting news articles claiming that corona is a hoax and that the other facts and figures out there aren't true.  Or those facts and figures were at least downplayed.   

I'm familiar with Google's search engine and how it works. I don't use Facebook and don't know as much about its algorithms, but I'm familiar with Cambridge Analytica and microtargeting with disinformation. 

That said, why were Google and Facebook providing him with right wing disinformation? Because that was the content he wanted and searched for, so they kept providing it to him. I know my own biases, but can tell you when I google things I'm just as likely to see CNN, Fox, or MSNBC. Google and youtube each had banners on their home pages for months with links to accurate information. For someone to think this is a hoax requires willfully, deliberate self-censorship of every piece of information that isn't from far right wing, explicitly political sources. 

Is he accountable for Facebook putting a QAnon post on his wall or google linking 4chan? No.

But he's accountable for clicking that link and reading them. He's accountable for believing that nonsense. He's accountable for not fact checking or checking official sources. He's accountable for driving to a COVID-19 party, infecting how many others, and burdening our hospitials and health care staff with this. So, if we're assigning blame for the situation, I'm going about 0.00001% media and 99.99999% this guy wanting to believe political disinformation. And I'll empathize accordingly.

 

Here's why this bothers me: compare and contract the treatment and the expectations for basic adult responsibilities to this 30 year old adult to a regular adult. It's night and day. I used the example of a 15 year old getting life in jail for wrestling moves before, but it's worth repeating. We put a guy in jail for life who was 15. This guy is double that age. If he had a kid once he was an adult, and that kid killed someone accidentally using wrestling moves today, that 12 year old kid might be old enough to serve a lifetime in jail as an adult.

But it's not just that isolated example. We send people to jail, decide on the caliber of education they can get, and dictate a massive fraction of someone's future based on decisions they make well before 30. Hell, we'll put an 18 year old in jail and in a parole system designed to make them a lifetime offenders for a little bit of pot, and I'm supposed to have empathy for this idiot? 

[MacReady]

Just now, MookieMonstah said:

Unfortunately, I've tried too get to many anti-maskers to see the "light" only to be told to shut off CNN and bring my liberal agenda elsewhere and blah blah blah. I'm all set on it. You want to be purposefully obtuse and put others at risk? Cool, you get zero respect or sympathy from me.

See this is the problem.  It's forcing you to quit on them and turn them into the enemy.  You have to remember that this has been politicized, so you have to feel a little bit of empathy for these people because it's become a right or left thing and they don't know they can go straight down the middle. 

They're not abandoning their side if they wear a mask.  Granted, you will never convince anyone over text.  Text, Facebook message, comment... It won't work. 

But in person?  You might be surprised if you show a little bit of empathy and humility. 

Try to pretend you're on their side.  There's another staunch anti-masker that I know that made fun of me for wearing one.  He said I was dumb and a sheep and all that.  Instead of disagreeing with him, I said, "You're right, but I'd rather be made fun of by people I agree with than shamed by people I disagree with." 

It's the disagreement that entrenches people in their opinion.  Give a little, take a little. 

Try to empathize with them.  In my experience, a LOT of anti-maskers are anti-mask solely because they WANT to believe it's pointless and it's all made up to keep them from being terrified.  They're people, and people react in different ways to everything.  I truly believe that with humility and empathy, a lot more people would wear masks.  Instead of the former, there's more hate and vitriol and insults being thrown at them, and that never works. 

You were told to shut off CNN and bring your liberal agenda elsewhere?  Use that.  Say, "I don't watch CNN.  They're terrible, blah blah.  It's unsafe to wear masks for more than 10 minutes at a time, bad oxygen, etc blah blah, but I still do it -

- To make others around me feel safe.
-For the 2% chance it keeps me from getting sick.
-Whatever. 

Obviously, those reasons aren't why you wear a mask.  The % is much higher.  You don't care how others around you feel safe/unsafe.  You don't dislike CNN.  You don't think it's unsafe to wear a mask.  THEY DO.  Give a little, take a little. 

The best way to convince someone of something is not by saying YOU'RE WRONG, but by saying, YOU'RE RIGHT, BUT...

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Outpost31

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

You have to remember that this has been politicized, so you have to feel a little bit of empathy for these people because it's become a right or left thing and they don't know they can go straight down the middle. 

This post, brought to you by the guy who can't go 18 seconds without a wall of cursing at whatever vague enemy he has today, including the unemployed and their children around tax day.

Spare me your fake empathy lecture. You're defending this idiot because you see yourself in him. That's not empathy. It's selfishness.

Edited July 14, 2020 by ramssuperbowl99

[seriously27]

8 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Unfortunately, I've tried too get to many anti-maskers to see the "light" only to be told to shut off CNN and bring my liberal agenda elsewhere and blah blah blah. I'm all set on it. You want to be purposefully obtuse and put others at risk? Cool, you get zero respect or sympathy from me.

If I took a ship out to the side of the ocean and fell off the side of the flat earth those guys would laugh at me on Facebook for the next ten years. The problem isn't that they believe this is a hoax like The Moon Landing/Sandy Hook/911 conspiracy stuff, it's that them believing this is a hoax is causing other people to lose their lives. That's where I lose sympathy for them. I'm not going to laugh at him dying but you can't tell me he didn't seek it out. 

[MookieMonstah]

Just now, Outpost31 said:

See this is the problem.  It's forcing you to quit on them and turn them into the enemy.  You have to remember that this has been politicized, so you have to feel a little bit of empathy for these people because it's become a right or left thing and they don't know they can go straight down the middle. 

They're not abandoning their side if they wear a mask.  Granted, you will never convince anyone over text.  Text, Facebook message, comment... It won't work. 

But in person?  You might be surprised if you show a little bit of empathy and humility. 

Try to pretend you're on their side.  There's another staunch anti-masker that I know that made fun of me for wearing one.  He said I was dumb and a sheep and all that.  Instead of disagreeing with him, I said, "You're right, but I'd rather be made fun of by people I agree with than shamed by people I disagree with." 

It's the disagreement that entrenches people in their opinion.  Give a little, take a little. 

Try to empathize with them.  In my experience, a LOT of anti-maskers are anti-mask solely because they WANT to believe it's pointless and it's all made up to keep them from being terrified.  They're people, and people react in different ways to everything.  I truly believe that with humility and empathy, a lot more people would wear masks.  Instead of the former, there's more hate and vitriol and insults being thrown at them, and that never works. 

You were told to shut off CNN and bring your liberal agenda elsewhere?  Use that.  Say, "I don't watch CNN.  They're terrible, blah blah.  It's unsafe to wear masks for more than 10 minutes at a time, bad oxygen, etc blah blah, but I still do it -

- To make others around me feel safe.
-For the 2% chance it keeps me from getting sick.
-Whatever. 

The best way to convince someone of something is not by saying YOU'RE WRONG, but by saying, YOU'RE RIGHT, BUT...

 

I mean there is so much information out there proving masks helps, proving it doesn't restrict oxygen intake, proving it stops help the spread. They just refuse to accept it. You wont convince people who are anti-science, because they'll dismiss everything you say.