clevenowin Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, theJ said: Honestly i see two lost causes here. I see people on one side who refuse to wear a mask because of "political reasons". I see people on the other side who refuse to talk to the "others" because they see them as being too hard headed and not listening to facts. Both sides need to get over themselves and talk to each other like people. It would solve a lot of problems. Have you actually tried this yourself? I'll save you the trouble, it doesn't work. These people are lost, they are so ingrained in their position you cannot talk them out of it. The fact that they won't make a tiny personal sacrifice in order to help save the lives of their friends, families and communities shows they are beyond reproach. This is not the time for being reasonable, we passed that in March and April, this is the time for righteous anger and fury at the rising death toll of our fellow citizens. Be a patriot, wear a mask, condemn those who don't loudly and publicly as they are putting us all at risk. Edited July 16, 2020 by clevenowin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, theJ said: The really ironic thing is i just watched Groundhog Day yesterday. This is the same conversation we had yesterday or the day before. You think you're right about wearing a mask (you are), and think "they" are wrong (they are). I agree with that. You think you should be able to yell at them until they concede. I tell you that doesn't work. You say you don't care, they should change anyway. Whatever. IDGAF man. Realistically you or I can't make a difference anyway. The one guy who can has about 6 months of influence left (maybe), and we might have a vaccine by then anyway. So just get comfortable, find a good hobby that can keep you distracted, and maybe think about emerging from your hiding hole in February. It's what i'm doing. I've got some really cool woodworking projects i'm designing, so i'll be in my shop if you want to talk about that subject. As for this subject, i'm done. We've talked about this a bunch. I respect your sincerity and commitment to conversation, but based on my personal experiences - which appear to match the overwhelming experiences from people in this thread - conversation is only an effective tool when both people agree to discuss things in good faith. There is very little good faith anti-mask discussion. Edited July 16, 2020 by ramssuperbowl99 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, theJ said: You think you're right about wearing a mask (you are), and think "they" are wrong (they are). I agree with that. You think you should be able to yell at them until they concede. I tell you that doesn't work. You say you don't care, they should change anyway. Whatever. Im not yelling at anyone, I’m having a discussion on a forum. Am I going to validate their opinion by engaging with them if they can’t accept scientific fact? Absolutely not. I’m going to chalk them up to being a mouth breather and move on. My issue is when we as a society are unable to establish regulations to protect public safety because a large percentage of the population feel their opinions are as valid as scientific data when it comes to the spread of disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonStark Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, theJ said: Honestly i see two lost causes here. I see people on one side who refuse to wear a mask because of "political reasons". I see people on the other side who refuse to talk to the "others" because they see them as being too hard headed and not listening to facts. Both sides need to get over themselves and talk to each other like people. It would solve a lot of problems. Except there are a large number of people out there that actually ARE too hard headed and WON'T listen to scientific facts. Again, I'd love to live in that world, but that's not the world we currently live in. It's hard to get over yourself when every time you try to have a logical discussion with someone, every fact you through out gets no rebuttal except that you're a sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJ Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: We've talked about this a bunch. I respect your sincerity and commitment to conversation, but based on my personal experiences - which appear to match the overwhelming experiences from people in this thread - conversation is only an effective tool when both people agree to discuss things in good faith. There is very little good faith anti-mask discussion. Hey man, i appreciate your honest and sincere response. You're about the only person i've actually been able to talk to about this without getting a condescending response. So i appreciate that. Want to talk about woodworking? I need to make a better clamp rack. My wall is cluttered with clamps, and it's not very efficient storage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Just now, theJ said: Hey man, i appreciate your honest and sincere response. You're about the only person i've actually been able to talk to about this without getting a condescending response. So i appreciate that. Want to talk about woodworking? I need to make a better clamp rack. My wall is cluttered with clamps, and it's not very efficient storage. Sure - I know literally zero about woodworking but one of my buddies has a massive shop. He just finished building and installing all new kitchen cabinets from scratch. I helped sand. No big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 The idea of evidenced based research folks needing to have discussions with people who are spewing misinformation and conspiracy theories with an open mind is crazy to me. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, theJ said: The really ironic thing is i just watched Groundhog Day yesterday. This is the same conversation we had yesterday or the day before. You think you're right about wearing a mask (you are), and think "they" are wrong (they are). I agree with that. You think you should be able to yell at them until they concede. I tell you that doesn't work. You say you don't care, they should change anyway. Whatever. IDGAF man. Realistically you or I can't make a difference anyway. The one guy who can has about 6 months of influence left (maybe), and we might have a vaccine by then anyway. So just get comfortable, find a good hobby that can keep you distracted, and maybe think about emerging from your hiding hole in February. It's what i'm doing. I've got some really cool woodworking projects i'm designing, so i'll be in my shop if you want to talk about that subject. As for this subject, i'm done. I have plenty of hobbies. One of them is talking to you fine folks on the internet. Another is writing and recording music since I can't play live with my band anywhere. I also spend a ton of time in my yard and in my garden. I wish I had the woodworking gene like my grandpa, dad, and uncle. I think you actually do GAF, and want people to do the right thing. I just don't understand your approach. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 This isn’t meant to be a personal attack on you @theJ. I hope you realize that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: The idea of evidenced based research folks needing to have discussions with people who are spewing misinformation and conspiracy theories with an open mind is crazy to me. That's not what he's saying. He's saying the appearance of an open mind may be more effective in convincing people. In a way, you're emphasizing 2 different things. You're talking about the content of the conversation, and he's talking about the tone. And in general, everyday life, I agree with him. Discussion and cooperatively framed problem solving gets more things done 99% of the time. I actually have a reminder on my work desktop that says "Be the dumbest guy in the room", meaning when I disagree do so Socratically and phrase it as a discussion instead of just going "that's wrong - here's why". This is the 1%, because we have a group of people who say things they know aren't true as a way to hide what they really think. It's like getting into a boxing match with a shadow, there's nothing there to discuss. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJ Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: I have plenty of hobbies. One of them is talking to you fine folks on the internet. Another is writing and recording music since I can't play live with my band anywhere. I also spend a ton of time in my yard and in my garden. I wish I had the woodworking gene like my grandpa, dad, and uncle. I wish i could calm down for 10 minutes and actually spend some time with music. I've always had a dream to be able to play piano, but realistically i'll never allot the time. What instruments do you play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: That's not what he's saying. He's saying the appearance of an open mind may be more effective in convincing people. In a way, you're emphasizing 2 different things. You're talking about the content of the conversation, and he's talking about the tone. And in general, everyday life, I agree with him. Discussion and cooperatively framed problem solving gets more things done 99% of the time. I actually have a reminder on my work desktop that says "Be the dumbest guy in the room", meaning when I disagree do so Socratically and phrase it as a discussion instead of just going "that's wrong - here's why". I understand and agree with this philosophy. Let them come to the realization they’re wrong on their own. I get it. But, like you also said, it doesn’t apply. 1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: This is the 1%, because we have a group of people who say things they know aren't true as a way to hide what they really think. It's like getting into a boxing match with a shadow, there's nothing there to discuss. Correct. Misinformation, conspiracy theories, not arguing in good faith, etc. When facts/data can be dismissed as simply as “fake news” there is no conversation to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJ Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This isn’t meant to be a personal attack on you @theJ. I hope you realize that. We're cool. You and i are fighting for the same thing, we just have different approaches. That doesn't make us enemies. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Just now, theJ said: I wish i could calm down for 10 minutes and actually spend some time with music. I've always had a dream to be able to play piano, but realistically i'll never allot the time. What instruments do you play? *puts mod hat on* let’s stay on topic ya hooligan See that @webby? I’m working for free here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Just now, theJ said: I wish i could calm down for 10 minutes and actually spend some time with music. I've always had a dream to be able to play piano, but realistically i'll never allot the time. What instruments do you play? My mom picked it up as her first instrument at 60, and didn't half *** it either. She knows how to write/read sheet music, music theory, etc.. You never know man. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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