Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[theJ]

1 minute ago, SwAg said:

Yeah, I should jump in the lion exhibit to use the marketplace of ideas to debate the person who just jumped in on the merits of reading the danger sign.

Hey man!  Appreciate the response.  You woodwork at all?  I think my next project after the clamp rack is going to be a bedroom bench for a friend of mine.  She wants it rustic, so i'm thinking thick finger joints.

[theJ]

18 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You’re not wrong.

I get not everyone has the ability to have kids stay home, and it’s not ideal for them either, but there’s no way what they’re describing is going to work well.

I just read the back to school guidelines that my kids school put out.  At best, there are going to be large chunks of students and teachers quarantined at any point in time because the rules state that "any staff or student exposed to someone with COVID-19" must self isolate for 14 days.  Which they define as being within 6' of someone for more than 15 minutes.  In most classrooms that means 8 other kids around patient 0.  

Also every time a teacher gets a runny nose they're going to have to isolate until they can get a test, and get results back.  Which won't be hours, it's days.

Where do they think they're find subs for all these teachers that are out?

Plus they're requiring the teachers to not only teach in class, but remotely as well.  That's a huge burden.  It's basically 150% of a teacher's normal job, which already requires a 12 hour work day.  @MookieMonstah are they doing something similar in your school?

[MacReady]

Just now, SwAg said:

Yeah, I should jump in the lion exhibit to use the marketplace of ideas to debate the person who just jumped in on the merits of reading the danger sign.

You're right.  We should give up all hope and not try anything.  Let's just go around executing everyone who doesn't wear a mask.  We should also continuously insult people who are preaching hope and civility and act like we're on the moral high ground. 

Let's just break this down here:

I agree with you.  I've literally said that a dozen times in the last two days.  I hate seeing people without masks.  I hate it.  I hate being around them, I hate seeing them, I hate it.  I am talking about solutions.  Ways to convince them otherwise.  What you are saying is basically, "**** them."  That's it.  You're not offering solutions, you're just insulting people who are offering solutions.  That's literally all you're doing. 

Do I think civility and discussion is going to change every anti-mask person?  Nope.
Do I think it will change some?  Yep.
Am I going to try to change some minds?  Yep.

Do you think insults will change any of them?  Nope.
Do you think civility will change any of them?  Nope.
Are you going to try anything to change them?  Nope.

So WTF are you even here for?  Just to **** in Cheerios? 

If you're not part of the solution...

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 minutes ago, theJ said:

I just read the back to school guidelines that my kids school put out.  At best, there are going to be large chunks of students and teachers quarantined at any point in time because the rules state that "any staff or student exposed to someone with COVID-19" must self isolate for 14 days.  Which they define as being within 6' of someone for more than 15 minutes.  In most classrooms that means 8 other kids around patient 0.  

lol they may as well have everyone just show up every other Monday then.

[SwAg]

Seriously, some of you and your false equivalencies.  And the defenses are all too familiar: oh, they’re just a gullible buffoon with no ill will!

The reality is that the anti-mask crowd are not asimilar to those who intentionally infected others with HIV/AIDS, and we can use the same argument that was successfully used in those prosecutions.

Under the law, you have intent if you have knowledge, or know or should know that your actions are substantially likely to cause harm.  There is a mass body of evidence that documents the spread of a deadly virus, and they reject it based on, at best, their insanity.

It’s the exact argument being used in cases where an individual is arrested for spitting on someone during the pandemic.  And, I would argue it extends to the anti-maskers getting too close as well, as the data on virus transmission (reception) while wearing a mask is still relatively high.  Many are not simply charged with assault, but several other crimes because of the increased harm during this period.  Wait until someone dies, and this argument will be front-and-center for the national spectacle that is their depraved-indifference murder charge.

So, you do not have to like it, but at present facts reasonably support that a non-insignificant amount of these people have essentially weaponized their body and are more akin to terrorists than some clueless dopes erring in good-faith.

Edited July 16, 2020 by SwAg

[SwAg]

Hope we are all enjoying our conversation.

[MacReady]

5 minutes ago, SwAg said:

Hope we are all enjoying our conversation.

You’ve ignored literally every point I’ve made.  It boils down to you have decided to hate and give up on everyone not wearing a mask and I have not given up, choosing to believe that some (not all) can be convinced otherwise.

Essentially, you’re hostile towards my efforts to change minds, which really should have you hating yourself.  

[JonStark]

Just now, Outpost31 said:

You’ve ignored literally every point I’ve made.  It boils down to you have decided to hate and give up on everyone not wearing a mask and I have not given up, choosing to believe that some (not all) can be convinced otherwise.

Essentially, you’re hostile towards my efforts to change minds, which really should have you hating yourself.  

I agree that you should try to convince them otherwise first, but it's pretty clear after a minute or two what kind of conversation it's going to be. You're talking about a vast minority of anti-maskers that will listen to reason/facts at this point. If this was a month or two ago it would probably be easier, but anyone choosing not to at this point has most likely knowingly made up their mind. 

If someone is unable to have a logical conversation, I have no problem calling them out on it. Continuing to baby their immature response to this matter does more harm than good. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

28 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

More explanation, less insults.  That’s entirely what I’m getting at.  You’re not going to convince any of these people to start wearing masks through hostility.  None.  With literally anything, nobody’s mind has ever changed on an issue by yelling at them.  Throughout history, threats, insults and yelling has never convinced anyone of anything ever.  THAT is the crux of my point.  
 

All the data, articles, news stories, etc is free from insults, hostility, etc and those don’t get though either.

The explanations have been given and ignored.

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Anger IS acceptable.  I literally said that in the post you quoted.  I literally said it’s okay and understandable to hate those people.  I literally acknowledged anti-maskers are bad and should be hated.

It’s like what I imagine having a kid is like.  If you yell at them to turn their music down while you’re driving, all it’s going to do is make them more upset, but if you explain to them you’re trying to concentrate blah blah blah...

kids are a great comparison, but youre missing parts of the scenario.
 

as a parent you start by asking.  Then asking again with an explanation so you know they understand it.  After that I’m not asking any more, I’m simply telling you.

There’s a reason kids sit in the back and adults do the driving.  This scenario is no different. If they don’t want to listen and can’t be reasoned with, at some point you just shut the damned radio off (mandate masks).

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Take Facebook.  If they post a video of masks being bad for your health, you can do one of two things: You can say, “You’re an idiot, this has been debunked here, here and here.”  That will embolden them to either block you, ignore you, or send them on a Google hunt for more bad science that confirms their idea.  Or, you could say, “That’s really interesting.  The same thing has been brought up here, here and here.  But what’s really interesting is here x 100, they say the opposite.”

I believe this is where the “fake news” argument comes in.

Your approach is plenty reasonable, but in my experience wholly ineffective. If it doesn’t come from what they view as a good source, it’s irrelevant. 

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A lot of people have resorted to ranting and insults.  That does not work.  

What works is removal political barriers.  This should be 100% nonpartisan. 

Trying to toe the politics line here, but if we had top down, bipartisan agreement and guidance, we’d be much better off.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just found out my wife’s coworker’s daughter has apparently taken a turn and isn’t expected to recover.

She was a healthy 30 year old RN who went to NYC to help with staffing and has been hospitalized for a couple weeks.
 

When people wonder why some of us are mad, this is why.  She wasn’t the first and won’t be the last.

[vikesfan89]

43 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

.02% of current students would be almost 11,500 kids dead. Insane we're going to sentence almost 12k kids to death.

That's .02% of kids that get the virus isn't it? I haven't seen anyone suggest that every kid is going to get the virus 

[MacReady]

Just now, JonStark said:

I agree that you should try to convince them otherwise first, but it's pretty clear after a minute or two what kind of conversation it's going to be. You're talking about a vast minority of anti-maskers that will listen to reason/facts at this point. If this was a month or two ago it would probably be easier, but anyone choosing not to at this point has most likely knowingly made up their mind. 

If someone is unable to have a logical conversation, I have no problem calling them out on it. Continuing to baby their immature response to this matter does more harm than good. 

I disagree.  Let's follow the thread here...

Do you honestly believe that insults and calling them out will change their mind?  Put a percentage on it. 
Do you honestly believe that babying and pretending to empathize will change their mind?  Put a percentage on it. 

 

[MacReady]

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

All the data, articles, news stories, etc is free from insults, hostility, etc and those don’t get though either.

As you allude to, this is because they don't trust the source.  This is why ideally, you use anecdotal evidence.  Things you heard/read, boiled down to a couple sentences.  Would you read an article that said masks are bad?  No.  Same applies to them.  Provide the links by all means, but under the assumption that they will not be read.  What YOU say has more bearing. 

Quote

There’s a reason kids sit in the back and adults do the driving.  This scenario is no different. If they don’t want to listen and can’t be reasoned with, at some point you just shut the damned radio off (mandate masks).

Exactly, yes.  The issue with mask mandates is whether or not there is constitutional ability to mandate them.  That's why it's the responsibility of businesses, not government, to mandate them.  Walmart was a huge step. 

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Your approach is plenty reasonable, but in my experience wholly ineffective. If it doesn’t come from what they view as a good source, it’s irrelevant.

The question is whether or not there's any hope the other way.

I believe there is 0% hope of changing minds through hostility.  I know there's 0% hope of changing minds through just writing them off and not saying anything. 
I believe there's roughly a 10% chance of changing minds through calm, humble, kind discussion. 

[MookieMonstah]

36 minutes ago, theJ said:

I just read the back to school guidelines that my kids school put out.  At best, there are going to be large chunks of students and teachers quarantined at any point in time because the rules state that "any staff or student exposed to someone with COVID-19" must self isolate for 14 days.  Which they define as being within 6' of someone for more than 15 minutes.  In most classrooms that means 8 other kids around patient 0.  

Also every time a teacher gets a runny nose they're going to have to isolate until they can get a test, and get results back.  Which won't be hours, it's days.

Where do they think they're find subs for all these teachers that are out?

Plus they're requiring the teachers to not only teach in class, but remotely as well.  That's a huge burden.  It's basically 150% of a teacher's normal job, which already requires a 12 hour work day.  @MookieMonstah are they doing something similar in your school?

I wish I knew what our incredibly unrealistic guidelines will be. We have a committee that is starting next week to try and figure out how to have school. In a month. Its honestly a freaking joke.

[theJ]

12 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

That's .02% of kids that get the virus isn't it? I haven't seen anyone suggest that every kid is going to get the virus 

Let's say only 10% of the kids get it.

That's 1000 kids dead.  Like 100 school shootings.  It's just unfathomable.