1.26 - Jordan Love [QB; Utah State] - QB1

[incognito_man]

2 minutes ago, SSG said:

Size, athleticism, arm strength, mobility and pocket presence.  They both could throw off platform and from any angle.  Both had a quick release and could make any throw on the field.  Both had MAJOR concerns about their decision making.  

Deshone Kizer was a plus prospect coming out of ND, which is why there were reports that the staff loved him.  The ONLY reason there are complaints about the comp is he sucked in the NFL.  

That's the ONLY reason? lol

I watched them both a lot as well, and they are very dissimilar. I don't think there's going to be many (any) Kizer comps outside of jaded GB fans. Their pocket presence, release, throwing motion, routes thrown, footwork, progressions (read, run vs read, read, read, run) looked nothing alike to me.

[SSG]

4 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

That's the ONLY reason? lol

I watched them both a lot as well, and they are very dissimilar. I don't think there's going to be many (any) Kizer comps outside of jaded GB fans. Their pocket presence, release, throwing motion, routes thrown, footwork, progressions (read, run vs read, read, read, run) looked nothing alike to me.

PFF's comp was Kizer. 

[beekay414]

6 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

progressions (read, run vs read, read, read, run)

Kizer's pocket presence made Ian Book look calm LOL

[incognito_man]

2 minutes ago, SSG said:

PFF's comp was Kizer. 

yup. I remember when you listed pocket presence as a similarity.

JORDAN LOVE, UTAH STATE: DESHONE KIZER

The two are on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to pocket presence,

 

[SSG]

8 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

I'm not sure what your point is.  They actually are somewhat similar as prospects, but I don't think that's the gotcha you think it is.  Kizer wasn't a bad prospect; he was a mid-2nd round pick for a reason, and he was definitely a first rounder early in 2016.  Kizer failed in the pros because his bad habits from college got worse, including skittish pocket presence, a penchant for playing too much hero ball and inconsistent accuracy.  Love had issues in his final year with playing hero ball, but most of his flaws in 2019 weren't present in his 2018 game film; whether he'll struggle with them in the pros we have no idea yet.  Love has never had red flags surrounding his willingness to improve the way Kizer did, so that alone is probably enough separation to make this point moot.

Never said it was a gotcha as I stated in the thread already that Kizer was a good prospect coming out.  People don't like it because it's not associating him with the best case scenario.  These same people want to act like Jordan Love didn't 't take 1 single snap in 2019 because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's a can't miss future super star.

 

[beekay414]

You know what's funny...if Kizer had the mental aptitude that Love does, he wouldn't be a washout. 

[SSG]

1 minute ago, incognito_man said:

yup. I remember when you listed pocket presence as a similarity.

JORDAN LOVE, UTAH STATE: DESHONE KIZER

The two are on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to pocket presence,

 

Not sure what this proves.  I'm sure they are lazy because it's not their first instinct to evaluate him as a future hall of famer for no other reason than he's a Packer.  I get it, it will always be easier to grade every pick that's ever happened as an all pro.  Easier to kiss managements boot that way and we all know how eager you are to do that.

 

[incognito_man]

7 minutes ago, SSG said:

Not sure what this proves.  I'm sure they are lazy because it's not their first instinct to evaluate him as a future hall of famer for no other reason than he's a Packer.  I get it, it will always be easier to grade every pick that's ever happened as an all pro.  Easier to kiss managements boot that way and we all know how eager you are to do that.

 

i wish i got the chance to kiss Gute's Boot. It'd be a riot. A Gute's Boot Riot.

[SSG]

11 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

You know what's funny...if Kizer had the mental aptitude that Love does, he wouldn't be a washout. 

How do we know what Love's mental aptitude is?  The last time we seen him throw the football he lead FBS in turnovers and a lot of it was the result of mental lapses.  In PFF's evaluation the graded him out as the worst in FBS in turnover worthy throws on the first read.  That was throws made under 2 seconds.  That's not a coaching or talent around him issue, those are major mental lapses which falls directly at Love's feet.  It's the same sort of mental lapses that likely ended Deshone Kizer's career early.  

[Packerraymond]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:25 AM, Packerraymond said:

Alright the annual 1st round pick scouting report. Took me longer this year because Gute caught all of us off guard and took the one premium position I did little study on lol. Watched every available game from 2018 and 2019, think it was just about damn near every game he played both years.

Pros: The arm talent is all there and it doesn't take long to see it on tape. The delivery is loose and precise without wasted motions or labored delivery. Should have no long-term shoulder issues like we've seen in power arm QB's (Cam Newton) who involve a more violent release, Love's is smooth as butter. Hips/shoulders look loose and fluid, no pauses or jerks in his drops or release. Arm strength is upper echelon for the position, there is no throw on the NFL tree that will be off limits to him due to arm strength. Excellent recognition of the ball speed needed on a given pass, he has an excellent feel on when to reach back and thread the needle, but can still slow that release down and throw a beautiful downfield touch pass over the first wave of defenders. When in the pocket and well protected he's and over the top release point guy, very similar to Russell Wilson, at almost 6'4 very few balls get batted down at the LOS because of this, but on the run or in a congested pocket he has the rare ability to throw with accuracy from any arm slot like we see in Wilson, Rodgers and Mahomes. Opens up many windows this was and doesn't sacrifice arm strength or accuracy. On par with Burrow in the class for throw on the run ability, he's very powerful and accurate a strong percentage of the time on the run, no one can expect perfection when throwing in motion and while there are some misses, there are plenty more special looking dimes that we haven't seen from a QB entering the draft since Mahomes. Will offer a lot in the boot/action game this way, his play fakes are good for a college QB and will only get better learning from one of the best for 2-3 years. Outside of the pocket he is an above average athlete for the position with ample speed to outrun a majority of the rushers that come his way, won't mistake him for Wilson or Jackson out there, but he's definitely on par with a young Rodgers or Wentz in this category. When on the run his eyes are always downfield and never focused on incoming defenders, which makes him a prime candidate to continue the extended play chunk plays we've become accustom to seeing in our current QB situation. His pocket presence and escape-ability I would label as above average at this point.There are moments on tape where you wonder how he got out of the situation he was in, and then moments where he doesn't feel the blindside rush, misses a blitz or just simply isn't using the internal clock all QB's must use. Consistency is the key here, but all the tools are there, this is a tough aspect to grade other QB's on because we have maybe the best in pocket QB of all time that we've watched for a dozen years, but again Love gets to learn from that for 2-3 years so the potential is massive in this regard. Made progress on the mental aspects of the game over his time at USU, again hard to grade rookie QB's in this regard because we have on the the best in NFL history that we're accustomed to seeing every Sunday, but from Love's standpoint there is growth. Soph year you don't see a lot of multi progression pocket throws or looking off safeties. It was a fast paced offense where he made a pre-snap read and either made the throw if it was there, or successfully bought time and made an improv throw. As a junior, even though the numbers went down, you see more pro level tools develop. He's getting to the line quicker, trying to catch a defense subbing, hard counts to get free plays, and most importantly he's going through some progressions in the pocket and not panicking if that pre-snap read isn't there. There's some evidence of moving safeties with off looks as well. Encouraging because I know that Gary Anderson and his scheme are no favors to a QB, so most likely this was self development or help from the various pro QB gurus like Jordan Palmer that want to get their hands on these 1st round caliber guys. Either way you look, progress is happening here. Overall the tools scream top 10 pick to me, elite arm talent, loose and flexible, above average athlete that can move the pocket and create plays in a raw package mentally where progress is being shown, but his game is not without flaws.

Cons: Love is the opposite of a college system QB, a lot of these guys come in and you have to develop the "robot" out of them. They play under big time head coaches who want it done a certain way they know works and as an 18 year old kid, they master all of these traits down to a T, Rodgers was definitely like this under Tedford. Love is the opposite of controlled and robotic. He's chaotic. Coaching staff changes, high roster turnover and just an untalented roster in general left him with the mindset that the outcome of the games was equal to how far he could carry the team, which in a sense he is right, but that's not the attitude you want in a pro QB. "Hero ball" definitely clouds his judgement in 2019 tape, far too many times he makes aggressive decisions instead of smart decisions to try and make something happen. The decision making process needs to go from his desire to force things to happen, back to him playing confident in his teammates and scheme, which is more of what 2018's tape shows. Among other weaknesses I think he's got a long way to go in understanding zone coverages, the DC's in his conference picked on him there. Many of his 2019 picks are him failing to see a dropping LB into a window, or him making a throw in what was an open window, but not reading the close proximity of the ball to another DB's zone who can easily vacate and make a play on the ball. Love needs film study and reps beating zone defenses. Another large concern of mine is his propensity to panic and throw a prayer downfield when under pressure, it happens about once a game and is another large factor in his increasing turnover numbers. I don't think there is a better QB to learn from than Rodgers when it comes to eliminating this, but it needs to be eliminated. There is some rawness in his footwork when under pressure too, but his arm talent and ability to throw off-platform cover this up, Rodgers and Favre never developed here, and when you have an elite arm, you don't have to until you get old. Lastly for me, he drops far too many shotgun snaps, think just like a WR, his eyes are going to the play before he's secured the snap. I'm sure this will be one of the easier negatives to fix, but again it needs to be fixed if he wants to not be a turnover machine. 

Overall: Love needed to go to a team that didn't pressure him into immediate starting spot to make it, and luckily for him that's what he'll get. He's not pro ready as he never had a college system to really train him for the pros, and at Utah State it probably wasn't until recently where he gained exposure to work with guys to develop his NFL talent. Everything you could ever want for a high ceiling QB is there when it comes to natural ability, but he's just a ball of clay at this point when it comes to the immense mental processing for the position. 

Floor: Jay Cutler: A high arm talent starting QB who never quite puts together the mental side of the game and in-play decision making to be an elite QB. A big arm prone to silly mistakes and high turnover numbers. 

Ceiling: A bonafide top 5 ranked QB:  He's going to have a throwing motion similar to Wilson, he's got some magic/improvisation plays that will remind you of Favre/Mahomes but he'll be soaking in 2 years minimum of Aaron Rodgers, so it's hard to tell what the finished product will be. If the mental side reaches the physical gifts, we won't have to worry about the QB position in QB until 2035. 

Since we're back to the scouting of Jordan Love, some nerd watched every throw he made in 2019 and most of 2018.

[beekay414]

2 minutes ago, SSG said:

How do we know what Love's mental aptitude is?  The last time we seen him throw the football he lead FBS in turnovers and a lot of it was the result of mental lapses.  In PFF's evaluation the graded him out as the worst in FBS in turnover worthy throws on the first read.  That was throws made under 2 seconds.  That's not a coaching or talent around him issue, those are major mental lapses which falls directly at Love's feet.  It's the same sort of mental lapses that likely ended Deshone Kizer's career early.  

Do...do you know anything about Mike Sanford's system? My guess is not. Sanford is one of the worst OC's I've ever seen and quick throw plays are a staple of what he's always done. It IS a talent issue when plays are being forced due to lack of talent. Look how ****ty Tanner Morgan started looking under Sanford FFS. 

Plus, the 2018 tape shows something wildly different when he had a competent staff and talent around him. But you keep dying on this hill. I'll be glad when the season comes around and you disappear again.

[beekay414]

Tanner Morgan in 2019: 66%, 30 TD, 7 INT in 13 games
Tanner Morgan in 2020 (under Sanford): 57.9%, 7 TD, 5 INT in 7 games

It's almost like Mike Sanford Jr is terrible at his job

Edited May 4, 2021 by beekay414

[squire12]

What i learned from reading pages 135 to 137

Jordan Love falls somewhere on a continuum from

Patrick Mahomes to Deshone Kizer

 

 

 

 

and I need a stiffer drink 

[Refugee]

9 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Since we're back to the scouting of Jordan Love, some nerd watched every throw he made in 2019 and most of 2018.

What kind of dweeb would do that?  Thanks for resurrecting that one, I hadn't seen it, lost in the weeds of hot takes.

[ifeelasleep]

Thank you for putting that scouting report back, good stuff, if his floor is a young jay cutler the team can still have success as long as MLFs offense reins him in. 

I'd rather ride it out with him from the get go and let the coaches do their job, design the offense for him and if it doesn't work take a mulligan in the first with an extra pick next year. Not having elite qb play is awful but we gotta see what he can do in a live game situation.