The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[ronjon1990]

4 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I have been hoping to see improvement on our D over the last decade and YOY they are amongst the worst in the NFL.  ESPN has us voted as the worst D of the decade.....  Worse than the Lions, worse than the Browns.... Bottom of the barrel trash.  On the bright side we can only go up from here 

Nah bro, Carr is going to hold our D back from their obvious excellence 😉

[SimonGruber]

Not sure if this was posted yet fire away lol 

[Devilshark69]

Ok, grudens play calling in the RZ is waaay more questionable that carrs aggressiveness. IMO. Bottom line, certain posters on this forum will NEVER be happy until he’s gone. It IS that simple. The fact that this debate is 3 yrs old is proof. Lmao! Y’all have a great day, time to work. (And go home to my carr temple so I can do my daily worship/sacrifice!) lmfao!

[drfrey13]

16 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

interesting. . . if it was a 1 score game Id be livid that he threw the ball away. 
Down 3 scores, when we hadnt stopped their run game all day, the game was over. Im sorry to break it to you, we werent just all of a sudden going to start stopping henry. 
Again, agreed yes give someone a chance. 
But it seemed most of our receivers gave up on the play before Carr did. What is he supposed to do then?

I am not saying he was the only one but he stands out as the leader and the one with the ball in his hands.  If I was the QB and I say players quit I would have tried to fire one in at their helmet to wake them up.  Unfortunately you can not lead by example if you give up also.  The argument that they quit too is a favorite of my kids and I do not let them get away with it either.

With 4 minutes left down by one turning the ball over at the 2  yard line is much better than throwing a pick in the endzone.  It gives your defense a better chance.  This is a general rule of thumb but like you said we had not stopped Henry all day long so you may be right.  Tough call on that one.

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, SimonGruber said:

Not sure if this was posted yet fire away lol 

The play at 15 minutes is a good example of what I criticize Carr for.  He feels phantom pressure, goes through his reads to quickly, does not allow plays to develop (Biggest issue with Cooper), and generally forgets what is going on when he panics.  I will take Warner's opinion over most.  What I hear from him is aggressive and mindset.  Just like I have been saying that Carr's biggest issues are between his ears.

[BackinBlack]

10 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I am not saying he was the only one but he stands out as the leader and the one with the ball in his hands.  If I was the QB and I say players quit I would have tried to fire one in at their helmet to wake them up.  Unfortunately you can not lead by example if you give up also.  The argument that they quit too is a favorite of my kids and I do not let them get away with it either.

With 4 minutes left down by one turning the ball over at the 2  yard line is much better than throwing a pick in the endzone.  It gives your defense a better chance.  This is a general rule of thumb but like you said we had not stopped Henry all day long so you may be right.  Tough call on that one.

I agree here, and ultimately yes I do wish he gave Zay a chance in the back corner. Even if it was more of a throw away, why not just put it up, and see if he somehow makes a one handed toe tapper. 

The only other option he had once he rolled right was Carrier, who again started running opposite direction from Carr. (THIS IS A BIG NO NO). If Carr threw it, its likely a pick / or Carrier gets destroyed. Carrier even realizes this and stops to run back but its too late.

I do wish Carr gave Zay a chance. But again a play from 2 years ago, in garbage time in the 4th, I am surprised gets so much attention lol. 
Imagine If I kept bringing up a beautiful TD pass from Carr in Garbage time 2 years ago lol
 

Edited June 15, 2021 by BackinBlack

[drfrey13]

17 hours ago, NYRaider said:

If you have to go back 5 years to make a case as to why a player is good, that's not a great sign. 

In logic you can defeat a premise or the conclusion.  Your conclusion is that Carr is not elite which I will agree with but your premises are not entirely true.  I was trying to point out the issue but still agree with you before somebody else pointed it out as evidence that your conclusion was wrong.  Just trying to help you out.

[drfrey13]

5 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

I agree here, and ultimately yes I do wish he gave Zay a chance in the back corner. Even if it was more of a throw away, why not just put it up, and see if he somehow makes a one handed toe tapper. 

The only other option he had once he rolled right was Carrier, who again started running opposite direction from Carr. (THIS IS A BIG NO NO). If Carr threw it, its likely a pick / or Carrier gets destroyed. Carrier even realizes this and stops to run back but its too late.

I do wish Carr gave Zay a chance. But again a play from 2 years ago, in garbage time in the 4th, I am surprised gets so much attention lol. 
Imagine If I kept bringing up a beautiful TD pass from Carr in Garbage time 2 years ago lol
 

You still have to throw it no matter what.  Plays like that will stick out and give weight to other suspect plays that define your mentality.  I do not think there are very many aggressive type QBs that throw that away even under the same circumstances.

If you want to bring up beautiful plays from years past go ahead.  I still love watching Carr flip over the Saints defender or his amazing Aaron Rodgers type throw to TY in the pro bowl.  That is the player you get when he stops thinking and worrying about turnovers.  Carr can be special if he can fix the issues between his ears.

[BackinBlack]

7 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

You still have to throw it no matter what.  Plays like that will stick out and give weight to other suspect plays that define your mentality.  I do not think there are very many aggressive type QBs that throw that away even under the same circumstances.

Yea fair enough, I def wish Carr was more aggressive. He needs to be, and is a better player when he is too. 
When he puts heat on a deep ball instead of lobbing it, they are way more accurate.

I guess, my point is I can show Carr needs to be more aggressive by using game film that actually matters.
I dont need to bring up a garbage time play to show it. 
People always just throw out his good plays in garbage time, so I believe the same should be done for the bad. 

But I do agree he needs to be more aggressive. 

[Jeremy408]

5 hours ago, SimonGruber said:

Not sure if this was posted yet fire away lol 

I thought it was funny that a lot of the film that was reviewed in this video were against the Chiefs who we beat(one of two teams who beat them all season) and lost to because of the defense and Kurt Warner says "Youre not going to beat the chiefs doing that" and then later on basically says "I know they won but still"

[drfrey13]

Just now, BackinBlack said:

Yea fair enough, I def wish Carr was more aggressive. He needs to be, and is a better player when he is too. 
When he puts heat on a deep ball instead of lobbing it, they are way more accurate.

I guess, my point is I can show Carr needs to be more aggressive by using game film that actually matters.
I dont need to bring up a garbage time play to show it. 
People always just throw out his good plays in garbage time, so I believe the same should be done for the bad. 

But I do agree he needs to be more aggressive. 

I get your point and sadly I agree there are plenty of other plays during more meaningful minutes that show Carr's deficiencies.  The reason it is brought up is because Carr is viewed as a QB lacking aggression and that play is just an example of that issue on steroids.  The Warner breakdown is a good video of how an aggressive QBs sees the issues Carr has.  It is the reason why I have said my Ideal QB would be Carr's physical ability combined with Fitzpatrick's mental makeup.  To bad Fitz is a lap dog acting like a pitbull.  Sure makes him fun to watch.  I know many in here have criticized me for saying it but even Warner says he needs to sit in there and take the hit to complete the pass.  Warner use to take some big shots when he played so I would probably like Carr to be a little more careful than Warner.

[drfrey13]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I thought it was funny that a lot of the film that was reviewed in this video were against the Chiefs who we beat(one of two teams who beat them all season) and lost to because of the defense and Kurt Warner says "Youre not going to beat the chiefs doing that" and then later on basically says "I know they won but still"

It does seem hypocritical but I think his point was if you play that way overall the Chiefs are going to beat you.  Just like many of us in here believe settling for FGs will get you an L against the Chiefs even though we kicked 2 FGs in the win.  He actually points out plays that he liked from Carr in that game first showing what he needs to do for this team to be a playoff team this year.

[BackinBlack]

2 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I get your point and sadly I agree there are plenty of other plays during more meaningful minutes that show Carr's deficiencies.  The reason it is brought up is because Carr is viewed as a QB lacking aggression and that play is just an example of that issue on steroids.  The Warner breakdown is a good video of how an aggressive QBs sees the issues Carr has.  It is the reason why I have said my Ideal QB would be Carr's physical ability combined with Fitzpatrick's mental makeup.  To bad Fitz is a lap dog acting like a pitbull.  Sure makes him fun to watch.  I know many in here have criticized me for saying it but even Warner says he needs to sit in there and take the hit to complete the pass.  Warner use to take some big shots when he played so I would probably like Carr to be a little more careful than Warner.

Yea I have rarely, if ever, seen Carr stand in the pocket to deliver a pass knowing he is about to be lit up. Which as a QB you just need to do sometimes. The windows can be so small, you need to hold onto the ball that extra split second. 

Carr being a conservative passer, doesnt pair well with Gruden as a HC. Gruden is also very conservative. One of the 2 needs to step it up. 
I hope Gruden will dial up the aggression once our D improves a little. 
I have to believe that as an offensive minded coach, with our D, Gruden believes one or two turnovers from our O and the game is probably over. 

I hope some of the conservative play calls have kept Gruden up at night during this offseason. 
I hope Gruden is in Carrs ear too, if its 3rd and 5 and you can run for it, go get the F'n first down Carr. 

[BackinBlack]

I guess my biggest thing is, if you look at our roster last year minus QB most would say its toward the bottom of league. Say 10th worst (I think thats actually generous too)
Then you have Derek Carr who is maybe 10th best QB. 

That to me doesnt sound like a playoff team going into the season. 
Then you factor in we arent winning the division cause of KC

-
I think so many people are disappointed with Carr because we failed down the stretch. But, I just think our depth and overall lack of talent just showed towards the end of season. 

Carrs play regressed, yes, as a non elite QB, that happens. if Carr was consistent hed be top6-8.
Our run game fell apart
Our D was brutal

 

[drfrey13]

2 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

Yea I have rarely, if ever, seen Carr stand in the pocket to deliver a pass knowing he is about to be lit up. Which as a QB you just need to do sometimes. The windows can be so small, you need to hold onto the ball that extra split second. 

Carr being a conservative passer, doesnt pair well with Gruden as a HC. Gruden is also very conservative. One of the 2 needs to step it up. 
I hope Gruden will dial up the aggression once our D improves a little. 
I have to believe that as an offensive minded coach, with our D, Gruden believes one or two turnovers from our O and the game is probably over. 

I hope some of the conservative play calls have kept Gruden up at night during this offseason. 
I hope Gruden is in Carrs ear too, if its 3rd and 5 and you can run for it, go get the F'n first down Carr. 

I think this is why MM looked so different running the same plays with the same players.  I do not think MM is a better QB than Carr just like I think Fitz is not as good as Carr.  I do think that both of them are better suited to run Gruden's offense however.  If he can play with the aggressiveness of 2015 and 2016 he will easily be a top 10 QB and possibly top 5.  Aggressive offence combined with an opportunistic defense and we are in the playoffs.  I will take 4500 yards, 35 TDs, with 20 INTs.  Especially if it means we are sustaining drives which will have a positive effect on the defense.  Yes the offense does need to help the defense not because the offense needs catch up to the defense but because the offense is the better side of the team and more capable of doing more.  This team played well when we won TOP and TO differential.